浪子寻乡

hzsjy · 发表于 2008-7-9 06:28:00

这样走有无问题？

如无问题则黑象不在红兵一边，红可胜。

1C3k3/4P4/4b4/2p2P3/6b2/9/R8/R8/C2r3p1/4Kcr2 w - - 0 1

欢迎访问www.elephantbase.net

这是较顽强的走法：

1C3k3/4P4/4b4/2p2P3/6b2/9/R8/R8/C2r3p1/4Kcr2 w - - 0 1

欢迎访问www.elephantbase.net

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-9 6:58:36编辑过]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 07:40:00

这里的前几个回合是正确的：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]0767786867683868085868585363585410175444493959563938[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999071008999999534169994299509964993899599999992378[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26replyid%3D131441%26id%3D19692%26skin%3D0%26page%3D1%26star%3D3[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 07:44:00

但接下来的黑车7退1就欠考虑了：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]69683837562606014220415150400131[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999938999999991799999999634169994299509964994499569999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 07:54:00

应直接炮6平3，红如车九进五就如下着法，另是一个局面，黑下风守和。

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]56260601422017102002013144413141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999938999999991799999999634169994299509964994499569999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 07:58:00

红如车九平七，则有如下变化：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]06266968383744343747685826064220067634444737444176705051707151507141[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999938999999991799999999634169994299509964994499269999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 08:02:00

另外第4回合黑车6退3不好：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]58550636[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999991099999999634169994299509964995899599999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 08:31:00

回31楼下图,第44步黑退车捉兵怎么样?

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 08:37:00

34楼的局面黑能够守和吗?这个方案我考虑过,却没有研究过.

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-9 08:46:00

31楼给了黑方谋和的机会：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]412152323747324247375040212040413738424838394843171323241318433318383363202464422421414038484260[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]4199999937999999991799999999639952992099509964999999999999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26replyid%3D131380%26id%3D19692%26skin%3D0%26page%3D1%26star%3D4[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-9 8:46:26编辑过]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 08:52:00

回33楼,红若车九进五,黑可这样应付: [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]443437476838[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_binit]0199999937999999991799999999634168994299509964994499269999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs//dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 09:35:00

QUOTE:

以下是引用棋人ctq在2008-7-9 8:52:00的发言：
回33楼,红若车九进五,黑可这样应付: [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]443437476838[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_binit]0199999937999999991799999999634168994299509964994499269999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs//dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

看来只有34楼的变化才是红方的选择！！

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:12:00

34楼也不对，应该是28楼吧？

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:18:00

成和：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]3444473742200676444176705051707151507141585241215232374732424737504021204041373842483837484320214140[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999947999999991799999999634158994299509964993499999999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26replyid%3D131464%26id%3D19692%26skin%3D0%26page%3D1%26star%3D4[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:33:00

我过去,在创作过程中,有很多棋局由于种种原因没有定论,我将这些没有定论的棋局保存在草稿里,现在这里有怎么多高水平的朋友,正好请大家批评斧正.而这局也是其中之一.

通过上面的讨论,可以确定,第5回合红必须炮八退七才是正着.而黑方面对红炮八退七如何应付,大概有两种对策:第一种是将军献炮后4路车退底线;第二种是回底象用中车换兵.

对第一种将军献炮后4路车退底线,按yjr123棋友在16楼提出红兵三进一的变化可能形成红胜.

对第二种回底象用中车换兵,黑在被动中求和,也只是我自己的看法,很想听听大家的意见,谢谢.

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:35:00

这样是红方占优的局面：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]076778686768386808586858536358541017544449395956393856260626696838374434374768582606344447374220067644417670505170715150714158523738[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999071008999999534169994299509964993899599999992378[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3FboardID%3D48%26ID%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:40:00

QUOTE:

以下是引用蛟川鱼在2008-7-9 10:35:00的发言：

这样是红方占优的局面：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]076778686768386808586858536358541017544449395956393856260626696838374434374768582606344447374220067644417670505170715150714158523738[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999071008999999534169994299509964993899599999992378[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3FboardID%3D48%26ID%3D19692%26star%3D4%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

我认为此局面还有一些变化，黑方必须小心应付。

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:44:00

“对第一种将军献炮后4路车退底线”，此变不能算是正变。

我个人认为：红方有至少二种方法可取胜。

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-9 10:46:04编辑过]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:45:00

接45楼,黑可以再车6进6,帅六退一;车6退6,帅六进一;车6进6,帅六退一;车6退6,帅六进一,.....不变作和.

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:50:00

星海棋友说得对,第二种方案还有很多变化.我一开始就这么认为.不然为什么我一直没有对此局做定论.

蛟川鱼 · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:54:00

QUOTE:

以下是引用棋人ctq在2008-7-9 10:45:00的发言：

接45楼,黑可以再车6进6,帅六退一;车6退6,帅六进一;车6进6,帅六退一;车6退6,帅六进一,.....不变作和.

红方可以如此：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]5258383958521737[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]4199999938999999991799999999639952992099509964999999999999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D5%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

红优是肯定的，如何入局还须仔细推敲。

[此贴子已经被作者于2008-7-9 10:58:08编辑过]

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-9 10:58:00

这样仍不易和。

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]0767786867683868085868585363585410175444493959563938562606266968383744343747685826063444473742200676444176705051707151507141585237385258383958524121[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999071008999999534169994299509964993899599999992378[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26replyid%3D131307%26id%3D19692%26skin%3D0%26page%3D1%26star%3D5[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 11:04:00

是的,红选择变,黑肯定是下风.若与此局面能不能作红胜的结论,有待研究.

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-9 15:22:00

52楼原是针对50楼结尾的局面说的.

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-9 15:38:00

江湖型棋局创作确实很不容易，有时候一局棋结论需要研究很多次，还不一定对。

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-10 09:16:00

红方可能走了软着：

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]07677868676838680858685853635854101754444939595639385626062669683837443437476858260634444737422006764441767050517071515071415852373823244145523217373242453550403727424838394842393842483839484263532425353040413031414027292526313326275343425233304041303852574333574733322737387847457871414071704041707141407178453532313727783835383938272838372829[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]0699999949999999071008999999534169994299509964993899599999992378[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26replyid%3D131307%26id%3D19692%26skin%3D0%26page%3D1%26star%3D6[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-10 10:38:00

55楼红第17回合走车五平七,变化复杂些,也好象对红有利些.

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-10 11:03:00

接51楼,这样变化可以和. [DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]5232394932424939504039384248383948432120404139384363[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_binit]2199999939999999991799999999639952992099509964999999999999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs//dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D6%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-10 11:13:00

接51楼,这样变化红虽然不能立刻取定局,但黑守和难度大.

[DhtmlXQ]
[DhtmlXQ_type]排局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_movelist]5232394932424939504021204041203023243938424838394842393842483839484217372425303642493938494838394842635342493938494838394842363325265343425237474151435352424753[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]2199999939999999991799999999639952992099509964999999999999992399[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs//dispbbs.asp%3Fboardid%3D48%26id%3D19692%26star%3D6%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

★星海★ · 发表于 2008-7-10 15:16:00

崔老师：我认为51楼末尾的局面对黑不利，但是黑方也有软着：17回合车6进6叫将较劣。此时改走卒3进1红不易胜。

棋人ctq · 发表于 2008-7-10 16:55:00

能够结论为此局和棋吗?我没有足够的理由.还希望朋友们指点.

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