请大师们根据着法，推定棋图！

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-25 17:24:41

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-3-25 19:13 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]这是原局图、着，已经多次核对无误。图势近似：心谱-五虎争雄、百局-五虎下川、竹谱-大五虎(三局同图)。||||所列为全部着法，且无注解。从其着法来看，图势肯定有误，但不知该如何更正。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0][DhtmlXQ_comment43]至此结局，未标明胜、负、和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment43]
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sdndsx · 发表于 2023-10-10 14:20:19

老鸽子发表于 2023-10-9 06:28

原谱着法16回合取胜不成立，错误棋步不止一处。怎样尽量保留原谱着法？并且不少于16回合？试改如下：

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老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-25 21:08:12

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[DhtmlXQ_comment28]和局[/DhtmlXQ_comment28][DhtmlXQ_comment0]与流行版本相比，本局将原2•9位兵移至3•8位||为同型局中少见。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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★星海★ · 发表于 2023-3-26 00:29:10

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_28]和局[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]与流行版本相比，本局将原2•9位兵移至3•8位||为同型局中少见。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-26 07:33:41

★星海★ 发表于 2023-3-26 00:29

红方若有中相，黑方应有八路底卒。

yjr123 · 发表于 2023-3-26 08:34:13

老鸽子发表于 2023-3-26 07:33
红方若有中相，黑方应有八路底卒。

八路底卒有什么用处？

★星海★ · 发表于 2023-3-26 08:46:43

8路底卒的用处就是红要换一种胜法

★星海★ · 发表于 2023-3-26 09:10:37

根据老鸽子的修改意见，加8路卒，再做适当调整可和
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凌云子 · 发表于 2023-3-26 10:32:43

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]至此结局，未标明胜、负、和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]
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桑莫喜 · 发表于 2023-3-26 13:00:11

凌云子发表于 2023-3-26 10:32

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]棋图应是这样吧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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yjr123 · 发表于 2023-3-26 14:32:06

如果原棋图错误，而着法也不正确，则要推测出原图，几乎不可能，也没有意义。

yjr123 · 发表于 2023-3-26 16:12:44

桑莫喜发表于 2023-3-26 13:00

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]棋图应是这样吧。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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桑莫喜 · 发表于 2023-3-26 22:15:32

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yjr123 · 发表于 2023-3-27 10:26:44

桑莫喜发表于 2023-3-26 22:15

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[DhtmlXQ_comment69]这样会如何？[/DhtmlXQ_comment69]
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老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-27 15:00:01

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-3-31 09:30 编辑

yjr123 发表于 2023-3-27 10:26

谢谢诸位大师们诠正！标题局最大的不同是红相位置。

叶底三五（心谱-五霸尊周、五虎争雄、五将失道）类局，古谱中有十来局（包括同局），都是七路底相，唯有“百局-四寇擒王”是三路底相；现代有正式刊载的改局有二十余局，也仅有1局是三路底相，有些特别，所以我才关注，在这里帖出。

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-27 15:52:23

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-3-27 16:17 编辑

凌云子发表于 2023-3-26 10:32

根据原谱图着，8楼、11楼推定的棋图都不错！我在这里想请教的就是三路底相版本所能带来的新变，谢谢！

凌云子 · 发表于 2023-3-27 21:16:47

老鸽子发表于 2023-3-27 15:52
根据原谱图着，8楼、11楼推定的棋图都不错！我在这里想请教的就是三路底相版本所能带来的新变，谢谢！

七路底相，黑有压相眼进中卒的可能，而三路底相，黑中卒几乎没有中路突破的可能。
而大五虎属于红优排局(红方主动稍优)，黑方本来就较被动。

如果黑中卒不起作用，红方优势更明显。

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-3-27 21:30:15

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-3-28 09:00 编辑

凌云子发表于 2023-3-27 21:16
七路底相，黑有压相眼进中卒的可能，而三路底相，黑中卒几乎没有中路突破的可能。
而大五虎属于红优排局 ...

红方本就稍优，也难怪很少有人用三路底相改图！

本局因有三路底相限制黑方进中卒，故删去中卒可能不是漏刻，而是经过考虑的。但随之出现另一个问题：造成将帅露脸，黑方中马动弹不得，红方速胜。

古婺 · 发表于 2023-3-28 15:30:37

图1中说“原局图、着，已经多次核对无误。” 但19回合卒在相眼，红走不了相七进九啊。

yjr123 · 发表于 2023-3-28 15:59:29

古婺发表于 2023-3-28 15:30
图1中说“原局图、着，已经多次核对无误。” 但19回合卒在相眼，红走不了相七进九啊。

意思就是和书上的棋图和着法多次核对，书上这么走，他就这么录。

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-9-11 14:18:58

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-9-11 17:32 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_title]石毅等《象棋排局环球集锦》第187局铁骑神兵[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment7]原谱着法：帅四进一，棋图或着法显然有误。现只好改为帅四退一。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7][DhtmlXQ_comment6]据此着推定原图：||红帅位置应退一？||九路黑炮位置应退一？[/DhtmlXQ_comment6][DhtmlXQ_comment8]以下为原谱着法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8][DhtmlXQ_comment25]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment25][DhtmlXQ_comment0]香港梁利成拟，马兵胜全子局。图或着有误，详见第六着注。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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湖艓 · 发表于 2023-9-11 14:41:34

老鸽子发表于 2023-9-11 14:18

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[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]原谱着法：帅四进一，棋图或着法显然有误。现只好改为帅四退一。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_6]据此着推定原图：||红帅位置应退一？||九路黑炮位置应退一？[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]以下为原谱着法。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]香港梁利成拟局，马兵胜全子局。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_1]88585758384858482838485838485848455548585556422356575859575859587152213152312311[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_1]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator][/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-9-11 17:28:16

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-9-11 17:35 编辑

是啊，谢谢！本局原设计是缓手杀局，但顶帅离卒太近，一看就觉得有问题，只是没去仔细推敲。

老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-10-9 06:28:46

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-10-9 06:37 编辑

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[DhtmlXQ_title]邓崇律遗作《象棋排局大观》第二集134局[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]这样如何杀？[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_22_3]324121415150605214545271[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_22_3][DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_24_4]3241212050516072[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_24_4][DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment31]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_13]红虽优，但着法似乎还很漫长。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_13][DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版，共五集五册，系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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yjr123 · 发表于 2023-10-9 08:02:28

老鸽子发表于 2023-10-9 06:28

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[DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版，共五集五册，系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]败着[/DhtmlXQ_comment7][DhtmlXQ_comment8]这样如何杀？||||应该炮6平3叫杀黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8][DhtmlXQ_comment9]败着！应该马三退二吃马胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9][DhtmlXQ_comment13]红虽优，但着法似乎还很漫长。||||哪来的红优，黑象吃车后，红方立即崩溃。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-10-9 13:26:09

本帖最后由老鸽子于 2023-10-9 14:00 编辑

yjr123 发表于 2023-10-9 08:02

黑方落象吃车后，我曾试走了一下，好象红方能吃回黑车。只要把黑将逼至四路，红马八退七即可抽回黑车。

yjr123 · 发表于 2023-10-9 16:18:58

老鸽子发表于 2023-10-9 13:26
黑方落象吃车后，我曾试走了一下，好象红方能吃回黑车。只要把黑将逼至四路，红马八退七即可抽回黑车。

能够吃回车？

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[DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_27]
[DhtmlXQ_move_1_24_4]3241212050516072[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_24_4]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]本谱于1987-1988年间由蜀蓉棋艺出版社出版，共五集五册，系现代比较优秀的早期创作性棋谱。所选棋局应是四、五十年代的作品。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]败着[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8]这样如何杀？||||应该炮6平3叫杀黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]败着！应该马三退二吃马胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13]红虽优，但着法似乎还很漫长。||||哪来的红优，黑象吃车后，红方立即崩溃。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D57382%26page%3D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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老鸽子 · 发表于 2023-10-10 17:24:54

sdndsx 发表于 2023-10-10 14:20
原谱着法16回合取胜不成立，错误棋步不止一处。怎样尽量保留原谱着法？并且不少于16回合？试改如下：

非常谢谢，基本保留了原有思路，不错！本谱棋局数量近千，又是无网络时代创作的，图、着错误难免。

此外，余老师指出的问题（吃回黑车），今天下午我弄了半天也整不出来了。

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