对《二仙传道》的研究

一卒擎天

不是和局[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_title]《二仙传道》{红先和}渊243 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
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聨吟客

原譜有問題,   朱鶴洲大師的詮注本詮正走法仍可和局
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聨吟客

大陸規則和局,亞洲規則黑勝,  大家認為呢?
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[DhtmlXQ_comment3_65]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_65]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]紅勝定[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_31]應這樣[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28]　應這樣[/DhtmlXQ_comment28]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment6_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_50][DhtmlXQ_move_4_47_6]5159373839492040[/DhtmlXQ_move_4_47_6]
[DhtmlXQ_move_4_45_5]58482040[/DhtmlXQ_move_4_45_5][DhtmlXQ_comment5_46]||黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_46][DhtmlXQ_move_4_49_7]58185949[/DhtmlXQ_move_4_49_7]
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chessbug

聨吟客 发表于 2017-1-18 21:42
大陸規則和局,亞洲規則黑勝,  大家認為呢?

车七平八，炮3平2，车八平七，。。。

按中规，红车拦炮，但无法离线，所以不算捉，是长拦，不变作和。
按亚规，红方算长捉，不变作负。

聨吟客

在台灣擺此局就成黑勝局了,俺若再有機會當攤主的話, 嘻嘻嘻.........

一卒擎天

   一，在网上【古谱残局】栏见到三令斩姬和二仙传道，一次推出两个渊谱全有问题，。。。。。。
   二，江湖残局我不看亚州规则。
   
   

聨吟客

我的意思是,在什麼地方下棋或擺局 ,當然就用當地的規則

大陸規則對於千里獨行還有蚯蚓降龍等古局,  也成了黑勝局,亞洲規則反而和局成立

還有三兵連營走動砲架長捉也是黑勝的(這個大陸與亞洲規則 判決相同)

偏又出現什麼民間慣例替走動砲架的長捉解套
可是古譜中並未看到類似的棋例判決來佐證

棋局與棋規的關係以前也多有討論, 大陸的象棋軟件與對局網站聽說用的也是亞洲規則, 因為大陸規則太複雜,軟件不容易製造

所以古代現代大陸亞洲民間慣例等等的各種規則,究竟要不要統一? 還是維持現狀?  江湖棋攤的規則該何去何從呢?還是隨攤主個人喜好制定該攤的規則呢?

一卒擎天

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聨吟客

加兵局,亞規就能和局
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]||　加兵局,亞洲規則也能和[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_move_5_43_1]08582920585131325158204058593738[/DhtmlXQ_move_5_43_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_50]
[DhtmlXQ_move_1_47_2]5159373839492040[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_47_2][DhtmlXQ_comment2_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_50]
[DhtmlXQ_move_1_49_3]85845949[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_49_3][DhtmlXQ_comment3_50]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_50]
[DhtmlXQ_move_5_43_4]08482926[/DhtmlXQ_move_5_43_4][DhtmlXQ_comment4_44]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_44]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_6]09015057014157274140272042412028695928484048[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_6][DhtmlXQ_comment6_38]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_38][DhtmlXQ_comment5_52]亞洲規則黑勝( 大陸規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_52][DhtmlXQ_comment5_35] 在亞洲規則成劣著[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_35]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_7]273750404232403032423037[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_7][DhtmlXQ_comment7_33]紅勝定[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_33]
[DhtmlXQ_move_7_30_8]42524048[/DhtmlXQ_move_7_30_8][DhtmlXQ_comment8_31]紅勝定[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_31]
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聨吟客

如果高象,  只有亞規能和,  大陸規則黑勝這三局剛好可用來討論不同棋規與棋局的關係
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]加兵移高象局,只有亞規才能和[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]||和[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_43]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment4_38]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_38]黑勝定[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_40]||黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_40][DhtmlXQ_move_5_33_3]30312728[/DhtmlXQ_move_5_33_3]
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聨吟客

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0] 移高象局,　大陸與亞洲規則都黑勝 ,但走法卻 不相同![/DhtmlXQ_comment0][DhtmlXQ_comment1_50]||　黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_50]
[DhtmlXQ_move_2_43_1]08582920585131325158204058593738[/DhtmlXQ_move_2_43_1][DhtmlXQ_comment2_52]亞洲規則黑勝(大陸規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_52][DhtmlXQ_comment2_28]亞洲規則黑勝走法[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_28]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_2]4241505769595747244247482737480841310801313201023231020809290828291928181929182829192818192918282919[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_28_2][DhtmlXQ_comment28]大陸規則黑勝走法[/DhtmlXQ_comment28][DhtmlXQ_comment42]大陸規則黑勝(亞洲規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_29_3]5040014140304131304042524048273748386959[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_29_3][DhtmlXQ_comment4_36]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_36]
[DhtmlXQ_move_3_33_4]3031272831342829[/DhtmlXQ_move_3_33_4][DhtmlXQ_comment5_38]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_38]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_31_6]5727695927474147[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_31_6][DhtmlXQ_comment6_34]黑勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_34]
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聨吟客

呵呵呵,大家有何心得呢?

我又想到從共產黨解放大陸之後算起,大陸規則本身歷經多次修改 ,不同規則時期的棋局作品如果出現以下類似情形又該如何判呢?


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[DhtmlXQ_comment8]雙方不變,大陸規則 曾經 修改 兵卒長捉同時也允許對方長打,但後來又修改取消了,如果當時的棋局作品走成類似情況.現在要不要依照那時規則 判和局\u003F 還是依照最新規則判紅勝呢\u003F[/DhtmlXQ_comment8]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment11] 雙方不變,大陸規則曾經認為紅一將一捉判負,但後來修改為 單車 佔據守和要點附帶捉士象為允許走法,那麼之前的棋局作品如果出現類似情形,　要依照舊規還是新規來 判呢\u003F[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
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聨吟客

呵呵呵,再一例
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]此局大陸與亞洲規則都紅勝,　但勝法不同![/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_3]||亞洲規則勝法[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]雙方不變,亞洲規則紅勝　(大陸規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment3]大陸規則勝法[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12]雙方不變,大陸規則紅勝(亞洲規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
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聨吟客

三兵連營的規則問題
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[DhtmlXQ_title]《 三兵連營的規則問題  [/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment12]雙方不變,大陸與亞洲規則都 判黑勝,||||所謂的民間慣例江湖規矩可算和局\u003F\u003F是根據哪一本古譜資料呢\u003F 或是何人說了算\u003F還是某些棋攤主個人喜好說了算\u003F||　||我數十年來一直不明白||............[/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
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一卒擎天

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[DhtmlXQ_title]《二仙传道》{红先和}渊243 [/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment28]||||江湖局黑改炮1退8较好，给红设下一个随手的陷井！[/DhtmlXQ_comment28]
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聨吟客

再一例,  這個大陸規則怎麼判?
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聨吟客

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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]此局大陸與亞洲規則都紅勝,　但勝法不同![/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_3]||亞洲規則勝法[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]雙方不變,亞洲規則紅勝　(大陸規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_8]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment2_12]雙方不變,大陸規則紅勝(亞洲規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_12]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_2]484988894948898848498889[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_7_2][DhtmlXQ_comment19]紅勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment19][DhtmlXQ_comment3]大陸規則勝法,後來發現亞洲規則黑也和不了![/DhtmlXQ_comment3][DhtmlXQ_comment7]　這樣可對付亞洲規則[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
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聨吟客

這樣能維持 原意
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_3_1]862688282686288886268828[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_3_1][DhtmlXQ_comment3]大陸規則勝法[/DhtmlXQ_comment3][DhtmlXQ_comment12]不變大陸規則紅勝||(亞洲規則和局)[/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
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聨吟客

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[DhtmlXQ_comment21] 紅勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment21][DhtmlXQ_comment5]調整單雙步[/DhtmlXQ_comment5][DhtmlXQ_comment9]||亞洲規則必須這樣取勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_1]484988894948898848498889[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_1][DhtmlXQ_comment1_9]大陸規則可 這樣速勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_9][DhtmlXQ_comment1_14]大陸規則紅勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]此局亞洲規則勝法比大陸規則精彩[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
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yjr123

聨吟客 发表于 2017-1-27 15:33

這是不牽涉棋規的勝法，亞洲棋規勝法最簡單了，炮連續平一、平二即可。

聨吟客

嗯 ,說到棋規 感觸良多,所以一下子提出這麼多例子

呵呵呵.............

16樓大陸規則是判和嗎 ?
   

一卒擎天

聨吟客 发表于 2017-1-27 16:29
嗯 ,說到棋規 感觸良多,所以一下子提出這麼多例子

呵呵呵.............

前几年我在大师网曾对国规11规则提出质疑，别说象棋爱好者，就是象棋大师，象棋裁判也不可能全部吃透。
普通爱好者重点理解吧，我个人理解8楼不能吃炮应判闲，16楼3回如走象1进3，红可吃象，应判捉，红车三平一能不能，敢不敢吃象呢？

聨吟客

一卒擎天 发表于 2017-1-27 17:51
前几年我在大师网曾对国规11规则提出质疑，别说象棋爱好者，就是象棋大师，象棋裁判也不可能全部吃透。
...

黑只要走左象( 為何要走右象呢?  ),紅若升車黑卒8進1必勝,所以紅只能 車平一與三路呀 !

不管紅車敢不敢吃象或目的在不在吃象,亞洲規則一律判捉, 大陸規則就讓人頭痛了, 如果把敢不敢吃也考慮進去,
紅 車 平一是不敢吃邊象的( 不敢升車),  但車吃象並無立即危險,黑也要知道接走卒8進1組織攻勢才行 , 這種情況,大陸規則判捉還是閒呢?

yjr123

大陸規則判捉應該無疑，不考慮敢不敢的問題，衹要吃後無連殺就判捉。。

聨吟客

yjr123 发表于 2017-1-28 09:10
大陸規則判捉應該無疑，不考慮敢不敢的問題，衹要吃後無連殺就判捉。。

喔,這樣不算單車佔據守和要點的定義 嗎?

yjr123

聨吟客 发表于 2017-1-28 09:29
喔,這樣不算單車佔據守和要點的定義 嗎?

哦，這是11規增加的規則。

聨吟客

喔,所以大陸規則本身歷經多次修改,也使得棋友或排局作者對棋規要重新適應?

還是該時期的排局作品就要按照該時期的規則來判?

但棋攤上攤主與路人又怎麼會如此根據呢?

呵呵

一卒擎天

聨吟客 发表于 2017-1-28 08:41
黑只要走左象( 為何要走右象呢?  ),紅若升車黑卒8進1必勝,所以紅只能 車平一與三路呀 !

不管紅車敢不 ...

我说敢不敢不是胆量大小，说走右象是说左象不动，红就敢吃7路象，判捉；9路象不动，红就不敢吃象，吃象等于放弃守和要点（参考11国规），判闲。
棋局创作要按现行规则，棋摊上真正的江湖艺人是不摆有争议的棋局，有争议的只能客户胜，谁愿对自己不利呢？

聨吟客

一卒擎天 发表于 2017-1-28 13:14
我说敢不敢不是胆量大小，说走右象是说左象不动，红就敢吃7路象，判捉；9路象不动，红就不敢吃象，吃象等 ...

不過三兵連營 等局在大陸棋攤應該很流行吧

搜尋街頭棋局的圖片照片就可知道

那麼攤主們是否都真的允許走動炮架的長捉算和局呢

他隨時都可搬出現行規則說那樣不行吧