[讨论]"力争中原"新变化

凌云子 · 发表于 2008-2-22 14:44:00

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[DhtmlXQ_move_9_66_10]4151707251502524[/DhtmlXQ_move_9_66_10]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_24_14]7078818242418232[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_24_14]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_17]5859828959498949484939386757264557672524495924235949456449596443594938483040233340433343[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_17]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_18]67578285304026455747455341515372514172604050854541514547[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_18]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_19_20]3846675746585747584647378232373846384838[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_19_20]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_21]31304849[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_11_21]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_24]843433348636348438463036[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment63]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment63]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_55]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_55]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_43]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_41]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_48]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_43]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_50]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_41]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_52]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_41]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_75]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment9_75]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_69]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment10_69]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_61]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_45]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_49]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_49]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_27]略[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_37]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_41]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_33]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19_33]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment19_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23_7]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment23_7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_6]黑胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_6]
[DhtmlXQ_open]A00 非常见开局[/DhtmlXQ_open]
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会心斋 · 发表于 2009-2-26 14:08:31

（一） 31楼的思路好！10回合炮4平8结论红胜当可成立，（则黑方只能选择卒6进1速和）。但个别细节还需斟酌，例如

1.车五平六将４平５ 2.后兵平五车４平５ 3.前炮平五车５进１

4.炮一平五车５平９ 5.炮五退二卒５进１ 6.车六退一将５平４

7.车一进三卒６进１ 8.车一进二将４退１ 9.兵四平五将４平５

10.马六进七炮４平８ 11.车一进一将５进１ 12.马七进五炮８进９

13.车一退八炮８退１ 14.车一进七将５退１ 15.车一平六卒７平８

16.马五进四将５平６ 17.车六退三将６进１ ……

此变第17回合，黑将6进1似可改为炮8进1；红方车六退三似可改为车六退五。

（二） 31楼把原一五位的红炮排在一六位，有特别的含义吗？如果没有特别的含义，还是排在一五位美观些。

（三）红方一路的“炮炮车”改排到二路，可能更好些。理由如下：第10回合黑方除了卒6进1以外，可炮4平9试探。红方如退车底线，则如16楼黑胜；红应车二平一，黑如炮9平8则如31楼红胜，如卒6进1则和。如此，把大家所探索出来的全部精妙变化基本都包括进去了。请验证。

　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　
┌┬┬包┬┬┬┬┐　　红　黑　
├┼┼┼砗兵┼┼┤　　─　─　
├┼┼将┼┼┼┼┤　　砗　车　
├┼┼车┼兵┼┼┤　　码　马　
├┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┤　　相　象　
├┬兵┬┬┬┬炮┤　　仕　士　
├┼┼┼┼┼┼炮┤　　帅　将　
├┼┼┼卒卒卒砗┤　　炮　包　
├┼┼码卒┼┼┼┤　　兵　卒　
└┴┴帅┴┴┴┴┘　(红方行棋)

[ 本帖最后由会心斋于 2009-2-26 14:17 编辑 ]

会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-20 10:14:33

顶出来。大家还有新的意见吗？

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-20 12:49:11

（一） 31楼的思路好！10回合炮4平8结论红胜当可成立，（则黑方只能选择卒6进1速和）。但个别细节还需斟酌，例如

1.车五平六将４平５ 2.后兵平五车４平５ 3.前炮平五车５进１

4.炮一平五车５平９ 5.炮五退二卒５进１ 6.车六退一将５平４

7.车一进三卒６进１ 8.车一进二将４退１ 9.兵四平五将４平５

10.马六进七炮４平８ 11.车一进一将５进１ 12.马七进五炮８进９

13.车一退八炮８退１ 14.车一进七将５退１ 15.车一平六卒７平８

16.马五进四将５平６ 17.车六退三将６进１ ……

此变第17回合，黑将6进1似可改为炮8进1；

红马四退六应有杀着(或可抽吃黑8路卒)吧!

会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-20 14:26:02

马四退六有杀着(或可抽吃黑8路卒)？？黑卒6进1了！如马四进六有些变化，但好像也无杀。

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-20 19:06:48

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会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-21 08:57:58

如车六退五，黑是不是无好棋可走？

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凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-22 11:28:18

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会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-22 12:12:09

原来精简下去的3路黑卒怎么又加上去了？有什么新的特别的变化吗？（原来删3路卒，是为了减少和棋路数。加3路卒会使原本可以分出胜负的某些变着分不出胜负了）

32楼设想的图式，详细变化如下

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[DhtmlXQ_title]渔翁觅贝[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_remark]张云川[/DhtmlXQ_remark]
[DhtmlXQ_author]会心斋[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_1_42_2]4140554540504658[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_42_2]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_1_32_6]6777455341513237[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_32_6]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_8_38_9]515232445251446351503530[/DhtmlXQ_move_8_38_9]
[DhtmlXQ_move_9_40_10]5242446342413545[/DhtmlXQ_move_9_40_10]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_1_26_12]7078818242418232[/DhtmlXQ_move_1_26_12]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_14]2645808972828969[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_21_14]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_15_35_16]75794849[/DhtmlXQ_move_15_35_16]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_15_31_18]444342324333324233434232[/DhtmlXQ_move_15_31_18]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_24]31307577464847483040423240485758484077794049797849895848514148383949384849597858[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_24]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_25]42523130677751614345764648383938474838394546305052425040425240465758467652427672424172527767615141405242[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_25]
[DhtmlXQ_move_25_8_26]43457779[/DhtmlXQ_move_25_8_26]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_27]323175353335767131327772[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_27]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_28]7535333541313242534342527636483839383536[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_28]
[DhtmlXQ_move_28_3_29]76363575[/DhtmlXQ_move_28_3_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment0]本局是在北京钱梦吾作品“渔翁觅贝”（见1978年民间刊印《百花齐放象棋谱第4集》）的基础上，参考陈松顺、李浭等前辈名家以及王振、敖日西、沈济英、陆俊杰等众多棋友的有关研究成果，辗转修订而成。双方战斗激烈，精彩异常。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14]另有两种走法均负[/DhtmlXQ_comment14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20]！||和中求胜的着法。也可径走卒６进１[/DhtmlXQ_comment20]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]！||捉炮正着！另有3种走法[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22]红方应对无误，黑方适可而止！如误走[/DhtmlXQ_comment22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment40]将居中路，炮守4路并暗控5路，和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_22]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_23]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_53]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_53]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_39]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_33]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_43]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_35]黑无好棋可走，红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_51]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_51]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_39]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment11_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_29]殊途同归，红胜定，略[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_21]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_40]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_21]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_24]黑胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_23]（劣，应车二平一捉炮）？[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_24]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_32]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_34]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_44]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_32]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_45]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_36]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19_30]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment19_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19_34]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment19_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20_32]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment20_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_19]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_20]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_20]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_28]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_14]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_19]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23_14]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment23_14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23_31]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment23_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_9]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_16]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_20]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_20]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_28]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25_6]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment25_6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25_11]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment25_11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25_31]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment25_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment26_9]红胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment26_9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27_2]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment27_2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27_7]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment27_7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28_1]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment28_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28_10]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment28_10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_4]！黑胜定[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_4]
[DhtmlXQ_open]A00 非常见开局[/DhtmlXQ_open]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.dpxq.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.dpxq.com/hldcg/search/mini.asp[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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[/DhtmlXQ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:17:34

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4138999939999999878586515399999933999999329999999999304748672568[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第109局渔翁觅贝[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]8535333586363585414785874748878948493036381789493949253517053646534335450524323143336757333231304939453551414636243635363231[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment31]http://www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php\u003Ftid\u003D10470\u0026highlight\u003D最早见于李更、陶诒谟《新江湖残局破解》，[/DhtmlXQ_comment31] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D10470%26highlight%3D[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:20:52

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4138999939999999878586515399999933999999329999999999304748679968[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]第109局渔翁觅贝[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_comment0]北京钱梦吾||（此局可能是《江湖百局秘谱》第11局“力争中原”的前身，但有误，红可胜。另“力争中原”也有误，黑可胜。）||[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_comment1]（首着红应平炮照将，可以获胜。）||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_27]和。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_27] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_25]亦和。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_25] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_24]黑胜定。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_24] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_20]黑胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_20] [DhtmlXQ_comment5_5]连杀红胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_5] [DhtmlXQ_comment6_7]红胜定。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_7] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]413132425343334385454345864645854648474831324232878568588582323151413141382667578287585987895758264530604566606589795949794948493938[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_1]30602645585982895949894948493938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_1] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_2]585982895949894948493938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_19_3]384667578287585987895747[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_19_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_4]313085874648474830404232404868584843878943498988[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_5]3231853533358681[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_6]8535333586363585382630364146[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_6] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D10470%26highlight%3D[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:24:49

不提“渔翁觅贝”为好.

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:35:44

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4199999939999938878586992599515399999999329999993399304748675799[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_open]A00 非常见开局[/DhtmlXQ_open] [DhtmlXQ_movelist][/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D10552%26pid%3D156970%26page%3D2%26extra%3Dpage%253D1%23pid156970[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

第39楼主要参考文献资料是李浭陶诒谟《新江湖残局破解》第172局的临潼斗宝，在其的基础上改进的,与“渔翁觅贝”有点远.

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:40:23

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4138999939999999878486515326999933999999329999999999304823476757[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_title]《江湖百局秘谱》力争中原[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_comment1]首着红车兜底照将，这在双炮压车类江湖残局中是独树一帜的，也颇有新意。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1] [DhtmlXQ_comment14]进7路卒妙，同样伏杀。原谱走卒6进1，是习惯性的着法，因为6路卒距红帅来得比较近，似乎对红威胁更大，从而丧失了一个获胜的机会。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment14] [DhtmlXQ_comment28]黑胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment28] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_41]和。这是原谱的着法。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_41] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_13]红胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_13] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_9]红胜定。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_9] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_7]红胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_7] [DhtmlXQ_comment5_8]黑胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_8] [DhtmlXQ_comment6_10]黑胜。||[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_10] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]4131324253433343844443448646448446484748313242328784676884823231514131413846574782814140816147376131373846384849[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_1]5758848232315141314138465859828141408189594989494849394967574939574739383020262540414627202527152324150325350324[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_1] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_2]42528636484939494748494843443646[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_3]425243334737381752428444[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_3] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_4]323184343334868131328782[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_4] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_5]84343334863634843846303687844737[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_5] [DhtmlXQ_move_5_3_6]41313242534342528636483839383436[/DhtmlXQ_move_5_3_6] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D10470%26highlight%3D[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ] [ 本帖最后由凌云子于 2009-8-23 01:32 编辑 ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 00:46:02

还有如下的成和的方案[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4138999939999999878486999926535133999999329999999999304823574777[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_open]A00 非常见开局[/DhtmlXQ_open] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]41313242534333438444434486464484464847483132423287845758848232315141314138465859828141408189594989494849393830202625[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_1]3130848746484748304042324048575848408789404989854940584840488505484232423817053517384232[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_1] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D17949%26highlight%3D[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 17:01:01

[ 本帖最后由凌云子于 2009-8-23 17:34 编辑 ]

凌云子 · 发表于 2009-8-23 17:05:10

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4138999939999999878685991026535133999999329999999999304847579967[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_open]A00 非常见开局[/DhtmlXQ_open] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]4131324253433343854543458646458546484748313242328785575885823231514131413846585982814140818967571020303620304030466759498949484939495767[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D10552%26pid%3D157031%26page%3D2%26extra%3Dpage%253D1%23pid157031[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-24 09:12:16

原帖由 凌云子 于 2009-8-23 00:35 发表
第39楼主要参考文献资料是李浭陶诒谟《新江湖残局破解》第172局的临潼斗宝，在其的基础上改进的,与“渔翁觅贝”有点远.

[quote]原帖由 凌云子 于 2009-8-23 00:24 发表
不提“渔翁觅贝”为好.

万事开头难，钱梦吾先生的“渔翁觅贝”是原创性的，是这一系列棋局的发端，《搜秘》和《破解》中的图式收集于江湖，非原创，与后来又演化出来的其他图式一样，是“直接或间接”从“渔翁觅贝”发展来的。

歆滿樓主 · 发表于 2009-8-24 12:57:22

　　〝渔翁觅贝〞并非最早！

　　关于这一局的最早期作品，应当是刊载于1929年8月由钱梦吾编著，交由天津商报馆印行出版的《象棋彙刊》初集第49局，局名：〝围解平城〞。兹自他网转贴该局于下，提供参研：

[DhtmlXQ] [DhtmlXQ_ver]www_dpxq_com[/DhtmlXQ_ver] [DhtmlXQ_init]500,350[/DhtmlXQ_init] [DhtmlXQ_binit]4199999939992538878586999999515399999999329999993399304847579967[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_adddate]2007-08-26 00:00:00[/DhtmlXQ_adddate] [DhtmlXQ_title]《象局彙刊》第４９局：围解平城[/DhtmlXQ_title] [DhtmlXQ_date]2007-08-26[/DhtmlXQ_date] [DhtmlXQ_author]东萍公司[/DhtmlXQ_author] [DhtmlXQ_movelist]4131324253433343854543458646458546484748313242328785575885823231514131413846585982895949894948493938[/DhtmlXQ_movelist] [DhtmlXQ_comment25]||　和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment25] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_1]42528636[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_6_1] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_6]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_6] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_2]853533358636358538463036[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_1_2] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_1]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_1] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_3]323185353335868131328782[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_2_3] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_2]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_2] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_4]31308587464847483040423240485758484087894049898849405848[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_9_4] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_9]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_9] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5]483839495758858232315141[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_14_5] [DhtmlXQ_comment5_14]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_14] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_6]67578287585987895949894948493938[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_20_6] [DhtmlXQ_comment6_27]||　和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_27] [DhtmlXQ_comment5_19]||　红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_19] [DhtmlXQ_comment1_7]||　红胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_7] [DhtmlXQ_comment3_7]||　红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_7] [DhtmlXQ_comment2_6]||　黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_6] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_16]||　！[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_16] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_20]||　！[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_20] [DhtmlXQ_comment4_22]||　黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_22] [DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_7]4252433347373817372785555758865652428782[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_7] [DhtmlXQ_comment7_4]||　？[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_4] [DhtmlXQ_comment7_13]||　红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_13] [DhtmlXQ_comment0]||　上海顾鉴秋题校||　蛟川钱梦吾拟局||||　　【留雲軒主按】本局后来又名〝九令救主〞、〝出其不意〞、〝力争中原〞等等。[/DhtmlXQ_comment0] [DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hychess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hychess.com/bbs/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D7580%26extra%3Dpage%253D1%26page%3D3[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator] [/DhtmlXQ]

会心斋 · 发表于 2009-8-24 15:14:49

谢谢歆满楼主提供这条重要信息。记忆中陈松顺先生《江湖棋局搜秘》中就是这个图式（唯“炮炮车”在二路）。没想到在1929年就已经是这样了！ [ 本帖最后由会心斋于 2009-8-24 15:22 编辑 ]

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[江湖局研究] [讨论]"力争中原"新变化

回复 32# 会心斋的帖子

北京钱梦吾作品“渔翁觅贝”（

北京钱梦吾作品“渔翁觅贝” 的原局

从上面俩图可以看出“渔翁觅贝”错漏很多.

应重点介绍李浭陶诒谟

《江湖百局秘谱》第11局力争中原

上楼无法成和,除38楼的七兵前移一步外,

结尾有点变化.