江湖大局------停车问路 [古局再诠]

会心斋

以下是引用凌云子在2007-1-20 1:23:00的发言：

我想--------会心斋之所以提出首创，是为了保护知识产权吧！

我是这么考虑的：创新的过程其实就是“破”与“立”的过程，把“破”与“立”的过程讲清楚了，这局棋的“进化”过程也就清楚了，“创新”之处也就凸显了。这是我的一种思维习惯和写作习惯。客观地讲，“站在巨人的肩膀上”既是一种骄傲也是一种谦逊。只要不是故意抬高某某，贬低某某，相信这样说明“首创”，更有利于从整体上理解这局棋的“繁难”和“最新成果”。

凌云子

以下是引用基地市长在2005-6-27 22:54:00的发言：

《江湖排局-停车问路》作者：福建 敖日西

本稿为作者向《棋艺》投稿，张志强主任转来的稿件，请大家审稿。谢谢！

停车问路

　　“停车问路”，亦称“停舆待渡”、“暗袭徐州”。原载《百局象棋谱》64局，《心武残篇》134局，《渊深海阔象棋谱》82局，《竹香斋象戏谱》三集7局，四谱图势略异，着法大致相同，结论均为红先和局。
　　然而《象棋》1962年第5期，张雄飞先生指出本局红先黑胜。此后许多棋谱认为本局红先黑胜；如由上海文化出版社出版的，朱鹤洲先生诠注的1994年版《渊深海阔象棋谱》及后1999年出版的《江湖排局集成》第118局的结论均为红先黑胜局。
　　虽然曾见由湖南人民出版社2003年9月出版，陈伯琴、陈勇编著的《象棋名局赏析入门》一书认为“停车问路”着法可和，但其中却有不少有待研究之处，否则会影响“停”局的欣赏性。
　　幸见体育大学出版社李浭、陶诒漠编著《江湖残局破解》第165局及后《象棋古谱新编--心武残篇》（1999年5月出版）均提出“弃炮平帅”求和新思路，引人注目，只可惜后半部分着法过于简单，草草判和，甚为遗憾。
　　另有由杨明忠、陶诒漠合编：
　　上海文化出版社，2001年1月出版《百局象棋谱》
　　上海辞书出版社，2002年2月出版《象棋谱残局诠注大全》
　　上海辞书出版社，2003年4月出版《象棋天地》第十二辑
　　均有关于“停车问路”的研究，而且认为红先和局的结论成立。大量诠正棋谱胜和结论混乱，互相矛盾，而且其中不少着法不够准确，需要进一步深入仔细的研究给以澄清。
　　经过多年不懈的努力，认为“停”局红先和局结论成立，现详演“停”局着法如下，欲与同好此局棋友深度探讨，遗漏之处，请海内外排局名家不吝赐教。由于研究“停”局棋谱过多，故无法逐一给予诠正。下面仅举例“停车问路”主要变化如下：特别说明：除图1、图3，及第12回合，三例变着外，所有变着与主变均为我所拟。（选用《百》谱图势）

以下是引用基地市长在2005-7-4 23:18:00的发言：

你见不到棋盘，你可能是使用Windows xp吧？如是，打不开本站的java动态棋盘，请下载、安装:

java虚拟机（简体中文）

以下是引用基地市长在2005-7-17 16:08:00的发言：

代发图：江湖排局--《停车问路》参三

最后几步，请查对。

凌云子

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-2 8:26:00的发言：

第55着相三进五后，黑方没有进攻手段，似乎红方有些优势，以下演示的是红方消极求和之法。

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-2 10:43:00的发言：
相一进三变例，红方这样走如何？

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-4 8:49:00的发言：

8楼的着法已经说明是消极求和之法，实际上红方有一定的优势，红方可如下图求变，但变化复杂。

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-4 8:49:00的发言：

8楼的着法已经说明是消极求和之法，实际上红方有一定的优势，红方可如下图求变，但变化复杂。

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-16 19:13:00的发言：

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-18 13:09:00的发言：

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-19 18:54:00的发言：
第52楼有误

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-19 19:06:00的发言：

第55楼22着黑方为何自杀？要是先卒6平5再士6进5就不会输了吧。

第56楼16着也是自杀棋，改车5平6还有一番争斗。

第57楼12着又是自杀，如走车7平5吃卒，再退1吃炮，鹿死谁手还不知道呢！

第58楼12着为什么不吃炮呢？

第62楼23着红方直接走炮二退九，车马位置较好，应该有些攻势。

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-20 12:26:00的发言：

以下是引用yjr123在2005-7-20 15:57:00的发言：
整理大型江湖排局需要深厚的功底，建议敖先生还是从小型江湖局开始研究。最后回复一个杀法，投稿专区，不再继续讨论。

凌云子

以下是引用小车马在2005-6-29 12:23:00的发言：

大量诠正棋谱胜和结论混乱，互相矛盾，而且其中不少着法不够准确，需要进一步深入仔细的研究给以澄清。

非常赞同此说法。除“停车问路”局外，还有“五虎争雄”、“鸿雁双飞”、“落花流水”、“绣带拖铃”、“金鸡独立”等江湖大局诠正工作仍未完成。建议研究会成员共同努力来完成这件事。

以下是引用小车马在2005-6-28 20:02:00的发言：

上海文化出版社，2003年2月出版《心武残篇》（杨明忠 修订）变化相似。

以下是引用小车马在2005-6-30 17:06:00的发言：

初步研究先平帅也很复杂。下面是一路黑胜走法，但红11着有炮二平三，25着有帅五平四，结果如何一时看不清。

以下是引用会心斋在2005-6-30 9:20:00的发言：

4楼小车马见地深刻，支持。我再补充意见如下：

2003年5月8日，我曾就此局向《象棋研究》投稿，但至今未发表。与1楼相比，我的着法主要有以下不同点：

一、第12回合，卒6平5变，车九平四，士5进6，马八进六……可能是红胜。

二、第15、16回合，可能应先走车3进1，如先走卒2平3，马七进五……可能是红胜。

三、第17回合，1楼认为相一退三和，相一进三黑胜。我认为，相一退三，将6平5……可能也是黑胜。（相一进三或退三，黒都有卒6平7和将6平5两种应法，都值得深入探讨）

另外，第4、5回合，古谱红方都是先吃士后平帅，1楼先平帅，会不会有问题，也需再验证。

总之，此局复杂，争论也多，需大家仔细地条分缕析。其中尤以17回合相一进三、相一退三两变（又各有卒6平7和将6平5两变，合起来是四变），是关键点，是突破点。

抛砖引玉，请大家讨论。

以下是引用会心斋在2005-7-15 8:35:00的发言：

曾在5楼提了几个问题抛砖引玉，这里再次抛砖引玉------

18楼“注1：如改走将6平5则车四进三，车3进1，车四退五，车3进1，车四平六！车3平2，车六平七，车2进2，车七平六，车2退2，车六平七，车2平5，车七平五，车5进1，相三进五，和。.......”

其中车3平2改走将5退1以静制动！红难应。（红如兵五进一，车3平5，车六平五，车5平7得相，黑胜势；红又如车六平四，车3平4！……，黑亦胜势）

以下是引用会心斋在2005-12-19 10:35:00的发言：
敖日西先生：您好！半年前我就您拟的着法在几个变着处提了几个抛砖引玉的小话题，目的是想说明此局需在细节上精雕细刻，反复探讨，不可急躁。半年来，我因为参加单位的“先进性教育”活动等，忙得昏天黑地，较少时间上网，没有再顾及此局。今天看到先生点名让我再看看，我心中十分惭愧！粗略看了看1、2楼的着法，深感先生对此局研究得已十分深刻，很多变着已超越前人已发表的着法，可喜可贺！
细节需细到何种程度，每个人的理解肯定各不相同。我个人以为，探索变着时务求其细，最终发表时限于篇幅又需有详有略。
马七进五这一变，从您拟的着法看，红方没有吃亏，应该是可以作为一个主变来考虑的。补充一个细节，2楼第3回合，红方能不能马五退七还原？

以下是引用会心斋在2005-12-20 10:13:00的发言：

敖兄太谦了，你我以及667、yjr123、小车马等人的年龄应该不会相差太多。 很高兴通过华工象棋网结识了你，握手！

马七进五一变，红方至少可以谋得和局大致可以肯定了。能不能胜需探讨。马七进五，车3平5，马五退七，车5平3，似属黑长捉。请再探讨黑的应着。

以下是引用会心斋在2005-12-21 8:49:00的发言：
我忽略了红马有根，看错了 红方可能也是一捉一闲，红车捉黑卒有一种说法是原来存在的捉，不判捉。是不是这样我也不太懂。好在不影响马七进五变例的总体结论（红方可不循环，而吃卒求和）。

以下是引用蛟川鱼在2005-6-30 22:02:00的发言：
两个变例的比较

凌云子

以下是引用hzsjy在2006-1-9 21:18:00的发言：
3楼3图第31着可能有问题! 改走车7平4后会怎样?

以下是引用hzsjy在2006-1-10 13:32:00的发言：

您好！

第一图25着走将5平4，暗伏弃卒抽车的伏笔。

您的着法没有体现出来。（将5平4以后我的着法有无问题？）

第二图还是要看“残局探索”栏目的演示！

以下是引用hzsjy在2006-1-11 18:57:00的发言：

还是3楼3图

以下是引用hzsjy在2006-1-12 18:42:00的发言：

13楼1图的着法还要斟酌。

3个变着都是黑优。（不一定正确，变化很多！）

变1

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

变2

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

变3

着法改了一下。

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

以下是引用hzsjy在2006-1-18 18:49:00的发言：

13楼6图第七着黑如改走卒6平5会如何?

======在 2006-1-18 6:58:00 您来信中写道：======
我虽然长时间关注停车,但只是这半年来.............
======================================

来信已悉,您所要求之事我自感惭愧,不能应允..

本想以短信的形式给您回信,但发了几次都有问题,不回又显得不尊重别人.只能这样了.

致意.

以下是引用hzsjy在2005-12-7 18:38:00的发言：

您好:

今天才见留言．我对此局确是无能为力．想几代大师（或曰专门破解棋局的大师）都无法拿出结论性＂胜或和的＂的意见．而且我又无缘得见＂杨明忠＂老前辈对此局的诠释．故不敢妄（往）下＂乱解．＂．请谅解！

会心斋

以下是引用凌云子在2006-8-21 23:27:00的发言：

如改走帅五进一 则详见附图二详演， （升帅变化极为复杂，通过yjr123版主的审核，帮助与指点！我经过长时间的研究，帅五进一无法守和！）

附局二详演如下：

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[DhtmlXQ_init]520,450[/DhtmlXQ_init]
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[DhtmlXQ_binit]850187nn59nnnnnn3975nn46nnnnnnnn48nnnn41403242nnnnnnnn0857nnnnnn[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_comment31]升帅变化极为复杂，通过yjr123版主的审核，帮助与指点！||我经过长时间的再研究，也认为帅五进一无法守和！||[/DhtmlXQ_comment31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]正着！||[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33]另如走马七退六，已公开发表的文章已提到！||[/DhtmlXQ_comment33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment102]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment102]
[DhtmlXQ_comment118]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment118]
[DhtmlXQ_comment134]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment134]
[DhtmlXQ_comment148]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment148]
[DhtmlXQ_comment160]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment160]
[DhtmlXQ_comment172]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment172]
[DhtmlXQ_comment186]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment186]
[DhtmlXQ_comment216]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment216]
[DhtmlXQ_comment222]yjr123版主的审核时指出的精妙绝伦的弃卒！！！！||[/DhtmlXQ_comment222]
[DhtmlXQ_comment228]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment228]
[DhtmlXQ_comment229]更佳||[/DhtmlXQ_comment229]
[DhtmlXQ_comment241]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment241]
[DhtmlXQ_comment261]红长将判负||[/DhtmlXQ_comment261]
[DhtmlXQ_comment277]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment277]
[DhtmlXQ_comment299]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment299]
[DhtmlXQ_comment311]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment311]
[DhtmlXQ_comment317]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment317]
[DhtmlXQ_comment337]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment337]
[DhtmlXQ_comment356]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment356]
[DhtmlXQ_comment364]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment364]
[DhtmlXQ_comment368]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment368]
[DhtmlXQ_comment378]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment378]
[DhtmlXQ_comment404]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment404]
[DhtmlXQ_comment414]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment414]
[DhtmlXQ_comment418]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment418]
[DhtmlXQ_comment427]红一将一杀士||故变着||[/DhtmlXQ_comment427]
[DhtmlXQ_comment468]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment468]
[DhtmlXQ_comment494]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment494]
[DhtmlXQ_comment509]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment509]
[DhtmlXQ_comment515]红反优||[/DhtmlXQ_comment515]
[DhtmlXQ_comment533]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment533]
[DhtmlXQ_comment569]红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment569]
[DhtmlXQ_comment585]红胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment585]
[DhtmlXQ_comment587]||另有车五平一，车五平九，车五平四，也是黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment587]
[DhtmlXQ_comment588]以下着法经yjr123的多次指点，确认黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment588]
[DhtmlXQ_comment590]如误走车3平6，卒7平6，则红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment590]
[DhtmlXQ_comment600]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment600]
[DhtmlXQ_comment608]黑也很难守和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment608]
[DhtmlXQ_comment616]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment616]
[DhtmlXQ_comment656]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment656]
[DhtmlXQ_comment680]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment680]
[DhtmlXQ_comment686]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment686]
[DhtmlXQ_comment694]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment694]
[DhtmlXQ_comment695]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment695]
[DhtmlXQ_comment730]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment730]
[DhtmlXQ_comment746]红胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment746]
[DhtmlXQ_comment752]红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment752]
[DhtmlXQ_comment758]红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment758]
[DhtmlXQ_comment769]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment769]
[DhtmlXQ_comment789]红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment789]
[DhtmlXQ_comment797]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment797]
[DhtmlXQ_comment826]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment826]
[DhtmlXQ_comment846]不变作和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment846]
[DhtmlXQ_comment861]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment861]
[DhtmlXQ_comment891]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment891]
[DhtmlXQ_comment915]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment915]
[DhtmlXQ_comment951]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment951]
[DhtmlXQ_comment957]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment957]
[DhtmlXQ_comment973]黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment973]
[DhtmlXQ_comment976]如相三退五，则下与（17.先相一退三 卒６平７ 18. 相三进五 车３平４ 。。。）殊途同归，略||[/DhtmlXQ_comment976]
[DhtmlXQ_comment977]如误走卒3平4，与车3平4均和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment977]
[DhtmlXQ_comment987]如误走车3进3，则和略||[/DhtmlXQ_comment987]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1027]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1027]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1041]红长将||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1041]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1071]红长将，黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1071]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1081]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1081]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1091]下同主变黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1091]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1092]下同主变黑胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1092]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1109]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1109]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1137]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1137]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1176]和 ||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1176]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1178]黑可胜略！||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1178]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]www.lshh.net[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[/DhtmlXQ]

第51回合红弃相费解,是否改走车五退一？同理45回合红是否改走相五进七？
42回合黑是否可改走车4平5？

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-24 14:07:39编辑过]

凌云子

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-24 11:02:00的发言：

第51回合红弃相费解,是否改走车五退一？同理45回合红是否改走相五进七？
42回合黑是否可改走车4平5？

42回合黑改走车4平5，好！可速胜！

会心斋

附图二19回合，红方相五进三或相五退三时，黑方将6平5；红方相五退七，黑方车4进5或车4进4。
实质性的区别在哪里？
相五进三或相五退三时，黑方是否也可以车4进5或车4进4？
相五退七时，黑方是否也可以将6平5？

凌云子

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-25 21:09:00的发言：
附图二19回合，红方相五进三或相五退三时，黑方将6平5；红方相五退七，黑方车4进5或车4进4。
实质性的区别在哪里？
相五进三或相五退三时，黑方是否也可以车4进5或车4进4？
相五退七时，黑方是否也可以将6平5？

附图二19回合，红方相五退七，

黑方车4进5，由于yjr123版主的审核时指出的精妙绝伦的弃卒！所以有必要介绍！

而将6平5，变化更多点！

我认为有一种取胜着法成立就可以了！

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[DhtmlXQ_binit]552547nn48nnnnnnnnnnnn46nnnnnnnn34nnnnnn5152nnnnnnnnnn2867nnnnnn[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_comment84]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment84]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment95]
[DhtmlXQ_comment124]也可以走||[/DhtmlXQ_comment124]
[DhtmlXQ_comment195]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment195]
[DhtmlXQ_comment294]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment294]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]www.lshh.net[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[/DhtmlXQ]

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-26 0:56:32编辑过]

凌云子

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-25 21:09:00的发言：
附图二19回合，红方相五进三或相五退三时，黑方将6平5；红方相五退七，黑方车4进5或车4进4。
实质性的区别在哪里？
相五进三或相五退三时，黑方是否也可以车4进5或车4进4？
相五退七时，黑方是否也可以将6平5？

附图二19回合，红方相五进三或相五退三时，黑方将6平5；，黑方是否也可以车4进5或车4进4？

以下是引用在2005-7-20 17:21:00的发言：

以下是引用在2005-7-21 10:48:00的发言：

以下是引用在2005-7-21 10:55:00的发言：

以下是引用在2005-7-21 11:00:00的发言：

以下是引用在2005-7-21 11:03:00的发言：

会心斋

1、“附图二”第19回合，红方相五进三与相五退三，我略作对比，黑方将6平5以后，双方着法好像基本没有实质性差别。所以相五进三似可一笔带过。

2、69楼，
1.相五退七 车４进５m 2.相七进九m 卒３平４ 3.帅五进一 车４平１ 4.帅五平六m 卒４平３ 5.帅六平五m 车１退２ 6.帅五退一 卒７平６ 7.马七进六 车１平５
帅五退一改走马七退六，因黑将不在4路助攻，红不至于速败。请研究黑方如何入局。

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-26 10:45:46编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-26 8:38:00的发言：
  

2、69楼，
1.相五退七  车４进５m 2.相七进九m 卒３平４  3.帅五进一  车４平１  4.帅五平六m  卒４平３  5.帅六平五m  车１退２  6.帅五退一  卒７平６  7.马七进六  车１平５
帅五退一改走马七退六，因黑将不在4路助攻，红不至于速败。请研究黑方如何入局。

  

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-27 9:07:00的发言：

72楼第1个图，第17着改走兵五进一，或者，第13着按兵不动而改走车四平三或平六死守，红方仍不至于速败。

 

  


  


  ========================================================================================================

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-25 21:09:00的发言：
附图二19回合，红方相五进三或相五退三时，黑方将6平5；红方相五退七，黑方车4进5或车4进4。
实质性的区别在哪里？
相五进三或相五退三时，黑方是否也可以车4进5或车4进4？
相五退七时，黑方是否也可以将6平5？

-----------------------------------------------------------

附图二19回合，红方相五退七，黑方车4进5或车4进4，红马七进五挺不错。

看来19回合，红方相五退七，黑方也要走将6平5。

----------------------------------------------------------------

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0341318LZJ08324645AKXC08332838BHZJ083417382QYM083539381JYD083648497KYC08376768BPXD08384544AKXC08396858BPZN08404443AKXC084138391JXD0842[/DhtmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]552547nn48nnnnnnnnnnnn46nnnnnnnn34nnnnnn5152nnnnnnnnnn2867nnnnnn[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_comment31]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment324]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment324]
[DhtmlXQ_comment335]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment335]
[DhtmlXQ_comment381]黑可胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment381]
[DhtmlXQ_comment587]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment587]
[DhtmlXQ_comment686]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment686]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]www.lshh.net[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[/DhtmlXQ]

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-27 9:07:00的发言：

72楼第2个图
1.相五退七      将６平５ m      2.车四进二 m    将５退１ m
  3.马七进八 m    车４进３      4.马八进七      将５进１ 
  5.马七退六      将５平４        6.马六进四      将４平５ 
  7.马四进三      将５退１        8.马三退四      将５进１ 
  9.马四退六      将５退１      10.马六进七 m    将５进１ 
 11.车四平三      卒３平４      12.帅五退一      将５平６ m
 13.马七退六      将６退１？
将６退１改走车4平5立胜 

再梳理一次，如下

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htmlXQ_movelist]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]552547nn48nnnnnnnnnnnn46nnnnnnnn34nnnnnn5152nnnnnnnnnn2867nnnnnn[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
[DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_comment62]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment62]
[DhtmlXQ_comment82]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment82]
[DhtmlXQ_comment255]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment255]
[DhtmlXQ_comment442]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment442]
[DhtmlXQ_comment751]黑可胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment751]
[DhtmlXQ_comment850]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment850]
[DhtmlXQ_comment861]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment861]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]www.lshh.net[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[/DhtmlXQ]

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-27 22:52:29编辑过]

会心斋

72楼第1个图，第17着改走兵五进一，或者，第13着按兵不动而改走车四平三或平六死守，红方仍不至于速败。
72楼第2个图，可能也会出现类似的情形。
这从一个侧面给我们以启示：主变着法中黑将处心积虑从6路向4路转移，是控制局势的远见之举；反过来，红方在没有胜着的前提下，尽可能阻止黑将向4路移动、尽可能维持防守阵型而不自乱阵脚，是红方谋和的基本思路。
综上，对72楼第2个图以及“停”局16回合“帅五进一”这一路大变着，还有必要重新检验、梳理一次，枝变细化，以免出现结论性的大错。

72楼第2个图
1.相五退七      将６平５ m      2.车四进二 m    将５退１ m
  3.马七进八 m    车４进３      4.马八进七      将５进１ 
  5.马七退六      将５平４        6.马六进四      将４平５ 
  7.马四进三      将５退１        8.马三退四      将５进１ 
  9.马四退六      将５退１      10.马六进七 m    将５进１ 
 11.车四平三      卒３平４      12.帅五退一      将５平６ m
 13.马七退六      将６退１？
将６退１改走车4平5立胜 

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-27 16:41:51编辑过]

会心斋

42楼附图二
1.车一进五      象５退７ 
  2.车一平三      士５退６ 
  3.车三退八      车５平７ 
  4.车六进七      车７平８ 
  5.帅四平五      车８退３ 
  6.马九退八      车８进４ 
  7.帅五进一      车８退１ 
  8.帅五退一      车８平３ 
  9.帅五平六      士６进５ 
 10.车六平九      将５平６ 
 11.车九进二      将６进１ 
 12.车九退五      车３退５ 
 13.车九平四      士５进６ 
 14.马八退七      卒１平２ 
 15.帅六平五      卒２平３ 
 16.帅五进一*     车３进１*m
 17.相一退三*m    卒６平７ m
 18.相三进五 m    车３平４ 
 19.相五退三 m    将６平５ 
 20.车四进二 m    卒３平４ 
 21.帅五进一 m    车４平３ 
 22.车四退二      将５退１ 
 23.车四平三      士６退５ 
 24.车三进五      士５退６ 
 25.车三退五      将５平４ 
 26.车三平六      将４平５ 
 27.车六平三      将５平４ 
 28.车三平六      将４平５ 
 29.车六平四      士６进５ 
 30.车四平三      士５进４ 
 31.车三进五      将５进１ 
 32.车三退五      将５平４ 
 33.帅五平六      卒４平３ 
 34.帅六平五      车３退１ 
 35.车三进四      士４退５ 
 36.车三退四      车３平１ 
 37.车三平六      士５进４ 
 38.车六平四？  车１进４ 
 39.马七退六      卒７平６ 
 40.帅五平四？  车１平４ 
 41.相三进五      车４进２ 
 42.帅四退一      车４平5 ！
黑得子胜定

40回合 帅五平四 改走 车四退二 ？
38回合 车六平四 改走 相三进一 ？

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-27 20:44:37编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-27 9:07:00的发言：

72楼第1个图，第17着改走兵五进一，或者，第13着按兵不动而改走车四平三或平六死守，红方仍不至于速败。
72楼第2个图，可能也会出现类似的情形。
这从一个侧面给我们以启示：主变着法中黑将处心积虑从6路向4路转移，是控制局势的远见之举；反过来，红方在没有胜着的前提下，尽可能阻止黑将向4路移动、尽可能维持防守阵型而不自乱阵脚，是红方谋和的基本思路。
综上，对72楼第2个图以及“停”局16回合“帅五进一”这一路大变着，还有必要重新检验、梳理一次，枝变细化，以免出现结论性的大错。

“停”局16回合如误走帅五进一则黑方可胜，详演如下：

16.帅五进一 ？ 车３进１！

甲，如改走卒６平７ 则马七进五 ， 车３平４， 车四进三 ，将６平５ ，
车四平六 ，车４平８，马五退三 ， 车８进５ ，帅五进一 ，车８进１ ，
帅五退一 ，车８退１，帅五进一 ， 车８平６ ，车六退一 ，将５退１ ，
兵五进一 ，车６进１，帅五退一 ， 卒７平６ ，马三退四 ，车６退２ ，
兵五进一 ，车６退１，车六平五 ， 将５平６ ，兵五平六 ， 和。

乙，如改走 将６平５ 则车四进三， 车３进２ ，车四退五 ， 车３进１ ，
相一进三 ，车３平４，车四平七 ， 车４进２ ，帅五进一 ， 车４退２ ，
帅五退一 ，卒３平４，帅五平四 ， 车４退１ ，车七平四 ， 车４平７ ，
车四进三 ，车７进１，车四平五 ， 将５平４ ，帅四进一 ， 和。

第17回合的变化：

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A，车四退二，车3进1，以下黑可胜，

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B，车四平五，

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C，马七退六，

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D，17，相一退三，（含相一进三），黑则卒6平7，

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        18。回合-----------------甲，帅五平四，乙，车四平五，如下图演示：

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[DhtmlXQ_binit]552587nn48nnnnnnnnnnnn46nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn5152nnnn24nnnn5728nnnnnn[/DhtmlXQ_binit] [DhtmlXQ_type]残局[/DhtmlXQ_type] [DhtmlXQ_result]未知[/DhtmlXQ_result] [DhtmlXQ_comment90]红反优||[/DhtmlXQ_comment90] [DhtmlXQ_comment173]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment173] [DhtmlXQ_comment352]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment352] [DhtmlXQ_comment384]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment384] [DhtmlXQ_comment422]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment422] [DhtmlXQ_comment441]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment441] [DhtmlXQ_comment669]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment669] [DhtmlXQ_comment677]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment677] [DhtmlXQ_comment742]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment742] [DhtmlXQ_comment790]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment790] [DhtmlXQ_comment800]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment800] [DhtmlXQ_comment806]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment806] [DhtmlXQ_comment828]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment828] [DhtmlXQ_comment838]黑胜 定 ||[/DhtmlXQ_comment838] [DhtmlXQ_comment965]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment965] [DhtmlXQ_comment969]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment969] [DhtmlXQ_comment971]黑可胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment971] [DhtmlXQ_comment1046]也可胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1046] [DhtmlXQ_comment1132]红属长打，不变作负||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1132] [DhtmlXQ_comment1162]红长将，黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1162] [DhtmlXQ_comment1215]劣着，和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1215] [DhtmlXQ_comment1234]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1234] [DhtmlXQ_comment1257]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1257] [DhtmlXQ_comment1325]红胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1325] [DhtmlXQ_comment1333]黑必胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1333] [DhtmlXQ_comment1428]红胜||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1428] [DhtmlXQ_comment1444]红一将一杀，不变判负||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1444] [DhtmlXQ_comment1454]黑胜定||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1454] [DhtmlXQ_comment1504]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1504] [DhtmlXQ_comment1668]和||[/DhtmlXQ_comment1668] [DhtmlXQ_refer]www.lshh.net[/DhtmlXQ_refer] [/DhtmlXQ]

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-29 20:39:47编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-27 20:39:00的发言：

42楼附图二
。。。。。。。。。。。。
 36.车三退四      车３平１ 
 37.车三平六      士５进４ 
 38.车六平四？  车１进４ 
 39.马七退六      卒７平６ 
 40.帅五平四？  车１平４ 
 41.相三进五      车４进２ 
 42.帅四退一      车４平5 ！
黑得子胜定

40回合 帅五平四 改走 车四退二 ？

----------黑可士4退5绝杀！！！

38回合 车六平四 改走 相三进一 ？

-----------重拟一下！

黑可相三进一  车１平６   帅五退一  卒７平６. 马七进九  车６平８  . 马九进八  将４退１   . 车六进三  将４平５
 . 车六平五  将５平４   . 车五平六  将４平５   . 马八退六  车８进５. 帅五退一  卒３平４   . 马六进四  将５进１   . 马四进三  将５退１黑胜定

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-28 9:47:00的发言：    黑卒在3路，黑士4退5，无绝杀，（红可帅五退一）。
黑方卒7平6献卒可能操之过急了，似应先卒3平4预作埋伏。

 

 

您的看法正确！

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-30 20:41:24编辑过]

凌云子

16.帅五进一？     车３进１！      

D，17，相一退三，（含相一进三），黑则卒6平7，

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        18。回合-----------------甲，帅五平四，乙，车四平五（75楼已介绍）

还有丙，.帅五进一--------进帅变，       相三进一（含相三退一 ）------边相变，

黑均走将6平5，调整阵型！黑方取胜的走法很相似！

丙，                                                               18.帅五进一

   18.帅五进一
18.相三进一或相三退一

  

  ============================================================================

丁：

18.相三进五（含相三退五）则车３平４，

19，红有相五进三 或相五退三 ，            （另有相五退七，黑将6平5，在72楼有介绍）等变化！

  


  

19，红有相五进三 或相五退三 ，黑则将6 平5，

20，

 

〈1〉，帅五退 一，将5平4，

  

〈2〉。车四进三，

  

〈3〉，马七进五

  

  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

〈4〉，车四进二，黑则卒3平4！

第21回合，

（I）帅五退一，

  

  

（II）帅五平四，

  

  

（III）帅五进一，顽强！黑则要应车4平3，（具体着法后面再介绍！）

第21 回合之（III）帅五进一，顽强！

黑则要应车4平3，22，车四退二，将6平5    23，如相三进一（或相三退一）

则形成下图；[与第18回合之丙变，进帅变边相变的着法可相互借鉴 ]

  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

第21 回合之（III）和第18回合之丙变

以上几个图：调整阵形后，

黑方有中路将，4，6路将之分，还有黑车由4路或1路突破的区别！

而红方有高相，底相，边相之分，又有高帅，低帅之分。

由于红方没有固定的防守阵势，使双方的可能变化太多了，

很难把红方的所有变化都穷举列出！？

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-30 20:53:28编辑过]

会心斋

以下是引用凌云子在2007-1-28 3:02:00的发言：

 39.马七退六      卒７平６？
40.帅五平四？  车１平４ 
 41.相三进五      车４进２ 
 42.帅四退一      车４平5 ！
黑得子胜定
40回合 帅五平四 改走 车四退二 ？
----------黑可士4退5绝杀！！！

－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

       黑卒在3路，黑士4退5，无绝杀，（红可帅五退一）。
黑方卒7平6献卒可能操之过急了，似应先卒3平4预作埋伏。

 然而，如何入局？
 这样？ 卒３平４  车四进一  车１进２  马六进七  车１平７吃相……演变下去不知是否黑胜
 哦，抑或这样？ 卒３平４ 车四进一（又如车四平五或车四平三或车四平六等，正在思考中） 车１平３ 车四退一  车３进２ 马六进七  卒７平６！ 车四退二  车３退４ 车四进六  士４退５ 帅五平四  车３进２ 相三进五  车３进２ 帅四退一  车３平５ 黑胜定

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-30 17:23:57编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-28 9:47:00的发言：

以下是引用凌云子在2007-1-28 3:02:00的发言：

 39.马七退六      卒７平６？
40.帅五平四？  车１平４ 
 41.相三进五      车４进２ 
 42.帅四退一      车４平5 ！
黑得子胜定
40回合 帅五平四 改走 车四退二 ？
----------黑可士4退5绝杀！！！

－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

       黑卒在3路，黑士4退5，无绝杀，（红可帅五退一）。
黑方卒7平6献卒可能操之过急了，似应先卒3平4预作埋伏。

 然而，如何入局？
 这样？ 卒３平４  车四进一  车１进２  马六进七  车１平７吃相……演变下去不知是否黑胜
 哦，抑或这样？ 卒３平４ 车四进一（又如车四平五或车四平三或车四平六等，正在思考中） 车１平３ 车四退一  车３进２ 马六进七  卒７平６！ 车四退二  车３退４ 车四进六  士４退５ 帅五平四  车３进２ 相三进五  车３进２ 帅四退一  车３平５ 黑胜定

  

  

  
  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-31 1:17:19编辑过]

wbs963

解的好！

会心斋

79楼第1个图77着红弃相费解。改相七退五？53着马八进六（伺机兵五进一驱6路卒）？
第2个图还可简化：第56着车3退4改为车3退2！马七退六，士4退5！黑胜。

第4个图75着红可改走帅四退一；第97着弃相费解。

关于78楼的问题我拟了几个变化，请检验，并请考虑有些时候红方如伺机进马骚扰能否得逞？如果车马不能较快成杀，则黑方吃相后车卒必能成杀，则下面几个图可以成立。

  


  


  

红方一将一捉违例，必变着，变着则按上面几图取胜  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-31 17:24:00编辑过]

凌云子

 

而81楼的三图可能还有这样的变化：

  

如上图时，马七退六可能是劣着？改走帅五进一，可能和？所以上回合黑应直接车1进6，捉相！！

 

  

  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-1 23:44:06编辑过]

凌云子

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-31 9:02:00的发言： 79楼第4个图75着红可改走帅四退一。
  


  


  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-1-31 22:53:42编辑过]

会心斋

QUOTE:

以下是引用凌云子在2007-1-31 22:15:00的发言：

 如上图时，马七退六可能是劣着？改走帅五退一，可能和？所以上回合黑应直接车1进6，捉相！！

我也在考虑这个问题。

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-1-31 9:02:00的发言：
79楼第1个图……53着马八进六（伺机兵五进一驱6路卒）？

有没有这样的棋：
38. …………  车１进４   39. 帅五退一  卒７平６    40. 车四平六  车１平３!
41. 车六平五（如车六平四，卒3平2，黑胜势）  将４退１（比卒3平2好）!  
42. 马七进五  车３平４    43. 马五进四  士４退５   44. 车五进四  车４进１  
45. 帅五退一  车４进１    46. 帅五进一  卒３平４ 黑胜

如不成立，则只有考虑车1进6了；如进4、进6都成立，则比较哪种更易从总体上把握。

车1进6简单些？－－
 

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-1 15:03:20编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-2-1 10:25:00的发言：

有没有这样的棋：
38. …………  车１进４   39. 帅五退一  卒７平６    40. 车四平六  车１平３!
41. 车六平五（如车六平四，卒3平2，黑胜势）  将４退１（比卒3平2好）!  
42. 马七进五  车３平４    43. 马五进四  士４退５   44. 车五进四  车４进１  
45. 帅五退一  车４进１    46. 帅五进一  卒３平４ 黑胜

38. …………  车１进４   39. 帅五退一  卒７平６    40. 车四平六  车１平３？
41.红续走马七进六如何？

 

  


  


  


  
改走车1进2呢？

  


  
以下是引用会心斋在2007-2-1 10:25:00的发言：

 

如车1进4不成立，则只有考虑车1进6了；如进4、进6都成立，则比较哪种更易从总体上把握。

车1进6简单些？－－

我也是认为车1进6好！二图有以下的着法！

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-1 21:46:00编辑过]

凌云子

由于附局二-----------------只有第16至21回合有注解（已在72，75，77楼重拟），

所以22回合以后就不太成熟，有诸多漏洞。

故再补充几个变例。

  

 

  


  


  
--------------------------------------------------------- 如下最后形成的局势，由红先行帅五退一，黑取胜的难度更大！

  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-3 0:00:50编辑过]

会心斋

1、86楼4图41着车七退四吃卒？建议30着卒4平3，帅六平五，士5进4（或车3退1？）……

2、原来的着法，例如79楼第一个图39着改走车三平四停一着，也能达到调整先后手的目的，黑车平1时，红方抢先退帅。

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-2 17:18:37编辑过]

凌云子

以下是引用会心斋在2007-2-2 16:51:00的发言： 1、86楼4图41着车七退四吃卒？建议30着卒4平3，帅六平五，士5进4（或车3退1？）……

  

2、原来的着法，例如79楼第一个图39着改走车三平四停一着，也能达到调整先后手的目的，黑车平1时，红方抢先退帅。

 

如果江湖残局也有自然限着的话，红就应多多一将一捉，或长捉等，等棋规不允许再变着！尽一切可能凑足自然限着，判和！ 前面已经有十回合未吃子！（下图是否可以凑足？）

  


  


  


  


  


  


  





  

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-4 22:34:58编辑过]

会心斋

头疼。

88楼倒数第3个图，85着改走帅五退一和？

请再补充两个变化：
 

[此贴子已经被作者于2007-2-3 15:39:39编辑过]

凌云子

QUOTE:

以下是引用会心斋在2007-2-3 10:05:00的发言：

头疼。

88楼倒数第3个图，85着改走帅五退一和？

请再补充两个变化：

 

 

QUOTE:

一图

二图：

以下是引用会心斋在2007-2-2 16:51:00的发言： 1、86楼4图41着车七退四吃卒？建议30着卒4平3，帅六平五，士5进4（或车3退1？）……

红一时还无法从4路进攻！