关于《象棋残局宝典》

yjr123

yuntao云涛 发表于 2014-9-14 12:05
就中国象棋2011规则【国内】
请教大家一个问题，本图是在http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c5fb5c30101i4r ...

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[DhtmlXQ_comment8_20]原谱注解是这么说的[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_20]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_21]再运帅到六路也是得车胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_22]以下黑用象和车司机应着，红方的得车手段是怎么实现的？红帅是如何能到六路的？[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_20]原谱主变[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_20]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment3_51]||大陸規則黑需變著[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_61]紅勝定[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_63]||大陸規則黑需變著[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_63]
[DhtmlXQ_move_2_93_5]7371[/DhtmlXQ_move_2_93_5]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_93]紅勝[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_93]
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[DhtmlXQ_move_8_24_4]102039192010192910202921[/DhtmlXQ_move_8_24_4]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_23]这样实现[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_23]
[DhtmlXQ_move_8_39_7]29392320313020303930[/DhtmlXQ_move_8_39_7]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_8]07270626272926164769608225471626383926273949826057482728293928204725201025076082392910202921827048577082374882604939608239388260212920233130[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_5_8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5]这样可以逼黑方犯规[/DhtmlXQ_comment5]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]捉[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]杀[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8]将[/DhtmlXQ_comment8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]应将后算的上增加了炮8进7的杀着吗？||||士五进六之前，炮八进七的杀已经存在，所以不是新增加的杀，判闲。[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D32812%26extra%3Dpage%253D1%26page%3D4[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
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象棋法官

yuntao云涛 发表于 2014-9-14 12:05
就中国象棋2011规则【国内】
请教大家一个问题，本图是在http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4c5fb5c30101i4r ...

第一例：黑炮垫将的同时产生了杀，判打。
第二例：红方撑士不是杀，杀是黑车离开防守位置造成，判红一闲，红方退士一杀。
黑方一将一捉，红方一杀一闲，判黑变，不变作负。

柒匹狼

看来棋规这些东西 也需要仔细读解 要不还真只能吃个表面定义

yjr123

第196局必须要用棋规才能取胜

yuntao云涛

象棋法官 发表于 2014-9-14 13:51
第一例：黑炮垫将的同时产生了杀，判打。
第二例：红方撑士不是杀，杀是黑车离开防守位置造成，判红一闲 ...

第一例：黑炮垫将的同时产生了杀，判打。
这个有争议，黑炮不垫将改成垫士也照样进车直接杀红棋，杀棋是红车离中造成的，跟垫炮无关，黑为何此招判打？
第二例：红方撑士不是杀，杀是黑车离开防守位置造成，判红一闲，红方退士一杀
第一例如果判打，第二例为何不判打？
第二例如果判闲，第一例为何不判闲？

菜鸟来玩

yjr123 发表于 2014-9-14 13:46
亚规允许长杀，不允许长捉。

亚规不可以长杀也不可以长捉，只可以一杀一将，不然输棋的时候抓住老将将，一直来回将，难道算和棋吗？谢谢

聨吟客

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-14 14:27
亚规不可以长杀也不可以长捉，只可以一杀一将，不然输棋的时候抓住老将将，一直来回将，难道算和棋吗？ ...

長殺與長將不同,任何情況均不能長將(除非雙方互相長將),而長殺亞規是允許的　

象棋法官

yuntao云涛 发表于 2014-9-14 14:13
第一例：黑炮垫将的同时产生了杀，判打。
这个有争议，黑炮不垫将改成垫士也照样进车直接杀红棋，杀棋是 ...

垫士黑方进车再马挂角才能杀，垫炮直接马挂角杀。垫炮产生新杀法有疑问吗？

yjr123

yuntao云涛 发表于 2014-9-14 14:13
第一例：黑炮垫将的同时产生了杀，判打。
这个有争议，黑炮不垫将改成垫士也照样进车直接杀红棋，杀棋是 ...

判断是否属于新杀时，只考虑有否新的杀法，不必考虑是否黑方自己离开防守要道所造成。

柒匹狼

第202局

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[DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]24424140304053614030614230407060085849395851605051504221[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_4_1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_4]原普着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_4]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
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柒匹狼

第210局

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[DhtmlXQ_comment18]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment18]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_12]原普着法[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_17]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_17]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战全局/开局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
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[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

菜鸟来玩

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[DhtmlXQ_title]可胜[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_result]红胜[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_author][/DhtmlXQ_author]
[DhtmlXQ_binit]9920999949999953999999437099999908992499409999999999996778999999[/DhtmlXQ_binit]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment1]score:0 time:4197 side:1[/DhtmlXQ_comment1]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2]score:0 time:5382[/DhtmlXQ_comment2]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3]score:29956 time:12246[/DhtmlXQ_comment3]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4]score:29967 time:7301[/DhtmlXQ_comment4]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5]score:29968 time:577[/DhtmlXQ_comment5]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6]score:29969 time:468[/DhtmlXQ_comment6]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7]score:29970 time:422[/DhtmlXQ_comment7]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8]score:29971 time:109[/DhtmlXQ_comment8]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9]score:29972 time:281[/DhtmlXQ_comment9]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10]score:19982 time:93[/DhtmlXQ_comment10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11]score:19983 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment11]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12]score:19984 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13]score:19985 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14]score:19986 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment14]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15]score:19987 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment15]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16]score:19988 time:63[/DhtmlXQ_comment16]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17]score:19989 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18]score:19990 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment18]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19]score:19991 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment19]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20]score:19992 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment20]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21]score:19993 time:62[/DhtmlXQ_comment21]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22]score:19994 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23]score:19995 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24]score:19996 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment24]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25]score:19997 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment26]score:19998 time:62[/DhtmlXQ_comment26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27]黑方被将死,红方胜！||||红方分数：19999||黑方用时：    13.946秒||红方用时：    16.037秒||双方实际花费时间：    29.983秒||||棋谱由象棋桥生成。[/DhtmlXQ_comment27]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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菜鸟来玩

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-16 18:35

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[DhtmlXQ_comment20]score:19950 time:156[/DhtmlXQ_comment20]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment22]score:19952 time:140[/DhtmlXQ_comment22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23]score:19953 time:94[/DhtmlXQ_comment23]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment25]score:19955 time:94[/DhtmlXQ_comment25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment26]score:19956 time:156[/DhtmlXQ_comment26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27]score:19957 time:218[/DhtmlXQ_comment27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28]score:19958 time:156[/DhtmlXQ_comment28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29]score:19959 time:218[/DhtmlXQ_comment29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment30]score:19960 time:141[/DhtmlXQ_comment30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment31]score:19961 time:187[/DhtmlXQ_comment31]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment33]score:19963 time:187[/DhtmlXQ_comment33]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment35]score:19965 time:140[/DhtmlXQ_comment35]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment37]score:19967 time:172[/DhtmlXQ_comment37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment38]score:19968 time:124[/DhtmlXQ_comment38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment39]score:19969 time:219[/DhtmlXQ_comment39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment40]score:19970 time:140[/DhtmlXQ_comment40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment41]score:19971 time:234[/DhtmlXQ_comment41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42]score:19972 time:156[/DhtmlXQ_comment42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment43]score:19973 time:219[/DhtmlXQ_comment43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment44]score:19974 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment45]score:19975 time:202[/DhtmlXQ_comment45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46]score:19976 time:172[/DhtmlXQ_comment46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment47]score:19977 time:203[/DhtmlXQ_comment47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment48]score:19978 time:93[/DhtmlXQ_comment48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment49]score:19979 time:203[/DhtmlXQ_comment49]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50]score:19980 time:141[/DhtmlXQ_comment50]
[DhtmlXQ_comment51]score:19981 time:202[/DhtmlXQ_comment51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment52]score:19982 time:141[/DhtmlXQ_comment52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment53]score:19983 time:218[/DhtmlXQ_comment53]
[DhtmlXQ_comment54]score:19984 time:141[/DhtmlXQ_comment54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment55]score:19985 time:156[/DhtmlXQ_comment55]
[DhtmlXQ_comment56]score:19986 time:140[/DhtmlXQ_comment56]
[DhtmlXQ_comment57]score:19987 time:203[/DhtmlXQ_comment57]
[DhtmlXQ_comment58]score:19988 time:125[/DhtmlXQ_comment58]
[DhtmlXQ_comment59]score:19989 time:202[/DhtmlXQ_comment59]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60]score:19990 time:125[/DhtmlXQ_comment60]
[DhtmlXQ_comment61]score:19991 time:219[/DhtmlXQ_comment61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment62]score:19992 time:140[/DhtmlXQ_comment62]
[DhtmlXQ_comment63]score:19993 time:203[/DhtmlXQ_comment63]
[DhtmlXQ_comment64]score:19994 time:78[/DhtmlXQ_comment64]
[DhtmlXQ_comment65]score:19995 time:218[/DhtmlXQ_comment65]
[DhtmlXQ_comment66]score:19996 time:125[/DhtmlXQ_comment66]
[DhtmlXQ_comment67]score:19997 time:187[/DhtmlXQ_comment67]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment94]score:19998 time:94[/DhtmlXQ_comment94]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95]黑方被将死,红方胜！||||红方分数：19999||黑方用时：     5.881秒||红方用时：     8.393秒||双方实际花费时间：    14.274秒||||棋谱由象棋桥生成。[/DhtmlXQ_comment95]
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柒匹狼

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-16 18:35

第二回合 改走 马四退六  红胜无误

菜鸟来玩

yjr123 发表于 2014-9-5 10:46
34局第1回合黑车6进6应该是进8，第8回合红劣

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和棋

象棋法官

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-16 23:41
和棋

第4回合炮一平四可胜。

菜鸟来玩

象棋法官 发表于 2014-9-17 00:08
第4回合炮一平四可胜。

牵涉到棋规，抱歉。亚规和棋

sdndsx

柒匹狼先生，你在这方面真的厉害！佩服！佩服！

柒匹狼

sdndsx 发表于 2014-9-17 09:40
柒匹狼先生，你在这方面真的厉害！佩服！佩服！

这点我可不敢当 和他们这些专门搞排局和研究的人来比 我就是一小毛贼 充其量只能用免费的软件 人机结合研究一些不太复杂的残局 仅此而已

yjr123

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-16 23:41
和棋

第4回合红方走劣，给黑方机会求和。

zhaodi

第4回合，红炮一平四后如何胜？是这样吗？

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[DhtmlXQ_comment1_44]score:0 time:156||||棋谱由象棋桥生成。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_44]
[DhtmlXQ_type]实战中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
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yjr123

仅是用软件在强机上走一遍，对于排局研究也只能参考一下，离排局破解还差很远。

zhaodi

还有游戏规则不一样，没法玩。

★星海★

对，不管亚规还是大陆棋规都可以，关键是要统一。

北方好汉

dave7788 发表于 2014-9-4 12:56

9楼，第八回合，黑车1进2，可增加回合数，当然仍是红胜。

菜鸟来玩

yjr123 发表于 2014-9-18 13:36
仅是用软件在强机上走一遍，对于排局研究也只能参考一下，离排局破解还差很远。

抱歉，我自始至终没有提到破解这两个字，发局面也是为了好玩，如果您觉得这些局面有误，请指正，谢谢

★星海★

菜鸟来玩 发表于 2014-9-18 22:19
抱歉，我自始至终没有提到破解这两个字，发局面也是为了好玩，如果您觉得这些局面有误，请指正，谢谢

只要机器足够强，大部分可胜的棋局都能通过软件破解：连照胜局有周软；非连照胜有强软，少数需要人为的引导。人机结合，应该没有破不了的。。这是好事，尽早知道结论有利于排局创作。至于和局，就麻烦了，要想拿出充足的证据，穷举是最可靠的，但是很困难，数学归纳法或者反证法是可行的。如果机器和软件都足够强，运行了足够长时间仍得不到结果，那么这局棋就有可能是和局。
棋规是软件的短板，受到开发者编写水平和对棋规理解程度的制约。

yjr123

从菜鸟的发帖，猜测主要是利用了残局库的技术，是穷举法得出的结果，其中绝大部分取胜结果是可信的，少数可能因棋规差异会有争议。
亚规大部分条款可以接受，只有把杀等同于闲的规定给劣势方很多求和机会，会影响棋局精彩程度。

柒匹狼

对于残局库里的资料能胜的部分应该是没有疑问的，只有和棋部分由于棋规不同结果是有待研究的。

yjr123

柒匹狼 发表于 2014-9-19 12:31
对于残局库里的资料能胜的部分应该是没有疑问的，只有和棋部分由于棋规不同结果是有待研究的。

亚规能够胜的棋局，也有可能大陆棋规是和棋。