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标题: 竹香斋——寒松卧壑(二集局31,1817年版本)（暂诠为和棋） [打印本页]

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-28 19:47
标题: 竹香斋——寒松卧壑(二集局31,1817年版本)（暂诠为和棋）
本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2018-9-29 12:47 编辑

对本局的胜和结论本人还不十分确认。经我拆解黑胜的着法都有一些问题。
重新编辑了一下，加入了朱鹤洲2000年版本的着法链接。
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[DhtmlXQ_title]寒松卧壑(二集局31,1817年版本)（暂诠为和棋）[/DhtmlXQ_title]
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[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]分类:双车单炮类||竹谱二17局寒松卧壑,心谱18局五色纷披,心谱17局琴瑟间钟.竹谱二31局寒松卧壑(1817年版本)||||弈聪注：该局原局未走完即判和局。现很多诠注本续走都认为是黑胜。但我发现黑胜着法有问题，红方实际都可走和。目前为止我尚未找到黑必胜的走法。大征西在鸿弈网中曾发过一贴，也认为黑胜。其变化已加入本局中。||||||||对胜和未十分把握。先发论坛求助。||||||[FEN=4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B8/p4p3/3K2c2 w - - 0 11]竹谱一本，和[/FEN]||||||[FEN=9/4k4/2P6/5P3/9/9/9/B2K5/3pp4/4c4 w - - 10 26]大征西论友黑胜主变？[/FEN]||||[FEN=5k3/4c4/9/5P3/2b6/9/9/B4K3/3pp4/9 w - - 0 24]白宏宽版本黑胜？[/FEN]||||||【zqhuang注】本局在朱鶴洲.蒋权.裘望禹整理的《竹香斋象戏谱》里被诠释正为黑胜。但我认为红方有顽强的走法可以守和。||||[FEN=9/4k4/9/4c4/2b6/2B6/9/3K5/4pp3/9 w - - 0 46]朱蒋裘版本黑胜？[/FEN]||||弈聪注：朱鹤洲在2000年单独出过一本诠注本，其后续走法认为是和棋。其后续和棋着法链接如下。||||[FEN=4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B8/p4p3/3K2c2 w - - 0 11]朱鹤洲版本和棋着法，先转到原局结尾再链接[/FEN]|||| 【大征西】我认为即使不按诠正着法走,最终也是黑胜!![/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22]和。竹谱一本。续弈黑可胜。||||原谱至此即判和局,其实此时形势黑优可胜,故原谱判和有误,走下去黑方可胜.但黑要获胜,亦非简易,必须经过一番艰苦曲折的搏斗,才能获得!!||　本局黑胜可分三阶段,先看第一阶段着法:||||弈聪注：以上为网上的其他人论点。红本人拆解，黑胜走法有误。胜和待进一步拆解。黑要取胜，将必须居中露头。满足这个条件，即可判黑胜了。但现有的黑胜着法红都有办法应对成和。||||网上黑胜着法是老将上顶居中。||||红方中间许多走法应该可调换一下走子顺序，一种走法和的话，其它走法也基本上成和。||||||[FEN=9/2P1P4/4k4/9/6b2/9/9/3KB4/3pp4/3c5 w - - 42 39]云库自动拆解黑胜着法1[/FEN]||||朱鹤洲2000年版本下步走帅六进一，黑有两种应着，炮7平4和炮7平5，都认为是和棋。||||[FEN=5c3/6P2/5k3/4P4/2b6/2B6/9/4K4/p4p3/9 b - - 5 23]朱鹤洲2000年版本和棋着法1[/FEN]||||[FEN=9/3P1k3/3P5/5P3/2b6/2B6/9/3K5/2p1p4/4c4 b - - 19 21]朱鹤洲2000年版本和棋着法2[/FEN]||||[FEN=9/3PP4/5k3/4P4/6b2/2B6/9/3K5/4pp3/7c1 b - - 41 32]朱鹤洲2000年版本和棋着法3[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23]云库下步走象1进3。[/DhtmlXQ_comment23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25]竹香斋象戏谱（朱鶴洲.蒋权.裘望禹）给出的诠正着法里是这样走，结果黑胜||||注解合并：||! 红此时这样走,使黑胜之路变得很漫长!![/DhtmlXQ_comment25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]？？[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]黑胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_59]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_59]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_38]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_92]亦黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment9_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_47]以下用相走闲着,亦可成和![/DhtmlXQ_comment10_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_45]||至此,形成双方互相牵制,黑方难胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment11_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_63]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_63]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_47]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_25]【zqhuang注】这样更顽强||||弈聪注：各种走法基本殊途同归。一种走法和的话，其它走法也应该和。因为黑要胜的话，1路卒要并拢。中间有很多步要走，这期间红调换一下走子顺序最后应该会走成相同的局面。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_27][FEN=4k4/2P6/3P5/9/2b6/4P4/9/B2K5/p4p3/4c4 b - - 5 14]相同局面[/FEN]||||[FEN=9/4k4/9/9/2b6/9/9/3K5/2p2p1c1/6B2 w - - 12 31]云库自动拆解黑胜着法[/FEN]||||云库执黑，本人执红，黑好象没变招余地。成和。红按以下主变走，看黑什么地方变招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_28]亦可!||||弈聪注：应该是正招。应该成和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_35]下见相同局面。[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19_90]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment19_90]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20_35]和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment20_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20_52]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment20_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_70]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_70]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_29]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_30]![/DhtmlXQ_comment22_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_34]黑可胜!？[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_80]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_80]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment23_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_36]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25_39]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment25_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment26_34]黑亦可胜!||||弈聪：和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment26_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27_31]这样和主变相同[/DhtmlXQ_comment27_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28_62]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment28_62]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_28]取胜之关键一着!||||||弈聪注：感觉是软着。黑要取胜，老将必须居中，想办法消灭红兵。现移开中路，感觉有问题。走这步棋目的应该是老将上顶后再居中。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_30]!||||弈聪：经本人拆解，该路变化和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_32]这样黑可胜!||||弈聪注：可能还是和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_35]弈聪注：本人拆解的招法。黑能胜否。不要怕红兵被黑炮打。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_37]或动相走闲，黑将无法居中，和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_38]黑走其它，红帅居中。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_54]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment30_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment30_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment30_52]黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment30_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32_44]黑胜定! ![/DhtmlXQ_comment32_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_34]!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_37]若如此循环下去,我认为此时应由红方变着!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_38]即使黑主动变着,如此走下去也是黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_39]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment33_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_44]至此,黑可胜!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_52]黑胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34_38]\u003F||||注解合并：||即使黑主动变着弃象,走下去也是黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment34_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34_54]至此,又应胜反和矣![/DhtmlXQ_comment34_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment35_45]黑应胜反和![/DhtmlXQ_comment35_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment36_46]至此,黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment36_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment37_36]黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment37_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment37_37]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment37_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment38_37]？？为何要送掉。动相走闲即可。[/DhtmlXQ_comment38_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment38_40]黑炮再消灭一个红兵后,即可胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment38_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment41_49]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment41_49]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42_56]黑胜定!![/DhtmlXQ_comment42_56]
[DhtmlXQ_comment43_56]黑胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment43_56]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46_60]黑炮打掉两兵后,胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment46_60]
[DhtmlXQ_comment48_37]？？[/DhtmlXQ_comment48_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment48_38]黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment48_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment49_37]动相走闲，使黑将无法居中即和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment49_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50_36]黑亦可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment50_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment51_40]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment51_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment52_40]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment52_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment53_38]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment53_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment54_35]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment54_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment55_36]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment55_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment56_30]亦可胜!（？？？）[/DhtmlXQ_comment56_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment56_31]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment56_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment57_43]红优[/DhtmlXQ_comment57_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment58_38]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment58_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment59_36]劣[/DhtmlXQ_comment59_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment59_37]这样反成红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment59_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_26][FEN=4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B2K5/1p3p3/4c4 w - - 4 13]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment60_26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_31]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment60_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_51]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment60_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment61_47]以下炮要防双兵杀，无法捉死相。和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment61_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment63_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment63_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment64_33]![/DhtmlXQ_comment64_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment64_54]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment64_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment65_34]感觉打这个兵太早。应该想办法先打红六路兵。[/DhtmlXQ_comment65_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment65_37]感觉上仅稍好些!即使走成这样,黑还要多费周折![/DhtmlXQ_comment65_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment66_38]!黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment66_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment67_42]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment67_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment70_36]至此,红三兵被黑炮灭掉一个,黑棋完成了黑胜的第一阶段的目标![/DhtmlXQ_comment70_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment71_38]至此,红三兵被黑炮灭掉一个,完成黑胜的第一阶段的目标![/DhtmlXQ_comment71_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment73_32]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment73_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment74_34]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment74_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment75_42]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment75_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment76_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment76_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment77_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment77_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_37]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_39]黑方长将。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_60]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_60]
[DhtmlXQ_comment79_61]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment79_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment80_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment80_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment81_26][FEN=4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B2K5/1p3p3/4c4 w - - 4 13]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment81_26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment81_35]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment81_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment82_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment82_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment82_70]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment82_70]
[DhtmlXQ_comment83_31]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment83_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment83_51]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment83_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment84_47]以下炮要防双兵杀，无法捉死相。和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment84_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment86_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment86_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_25]走帅六进一后再走可转到相同局面中。[/DhtmlXQ_comment87_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_27]![/DhtmlXQ_comment87_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_38]反而成和矣![/DhtmlXQ_comment87_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment88_35]黑不易胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment88_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment89_40]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment89_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment90_27]兵八平七中有相同局面，和棋。||后面是云库自动拆解的着法，本人未仔细拆解。[/DhtmlXQ_comment90_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment90_78]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment90_78]
[DhtmlXQ_comment91_27][FEN=4k4/2P6/3P5/9/2b6/4P4/9/B2K5/p4p3/4c4 b - - 5 14]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment91_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_12]劣[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_13]这样即可避免棋规问题获胜，黑无着可应[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_17]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment93_18]红方需变着。不变作负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment93_18]
[DhtmlXQ_comment94_38]黑胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment94_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95_10]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment95_10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95_14]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment95_14]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_timerule][/DhtmlXQ_timerule]
[DhtmlXQ_endtype][/DhtmlXQ_endtype]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]弈聪[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_gametype][/DhtmlXQ_gametype]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.ccbridge.net[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-28 22:15
本帖最后由聨吟客于 2018-9-28 22:28 编辑

還真有問題

三十多年來所有的詮注本都沒有發現

變化實在太多
大家再研究研究
如果真能和局應不輸八大名局囉

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-28 23:48
先修正一個變化

[DhtmlXQ]
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[DhtmlXQ_title]寒松卧壑(二集局31,1817年版本)（暂诠为和棋）[/DhtmlXQ_title]
[DhtmlXQ_result]和局[/DhtmlXQ_result]
[DhtmlXQ_author]弈聪[/DhtmlXQ_author]
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[DhtmlXQ_comment0]分类:双车单炮类||竹谱二17局寒松卧壑,心谱18局五色纷披,心谱17局琴瑟间钟.竹谱二31局寒松卧壑(1817年版本)||||弈聪注：该局原局未走完即判和局。现很多诠注本续走都认为是黑胜。但我发现黑胜着法有问题，红方实际都可走和。目前为止我尚未找到黑必胜的走法。大征本在鸿弈网中曾发过一贴，也认为黑胜。其变化已加入本局中。||||对胜和未十分把握。先发论坛求助。||||||[FEN\u003D4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B8/p4p3/3K2c2 w - - 0 11]竹谱一本，和[/FEN]||||||[FEN\u003D9/4k4/2P6/5P3/9/9/9/B2K5/3pp4/4c4 w - - 10 26]大征本论友黑胜主变？[/FEN]||||[FEN\u003D5k3/4c4/9/5P3/2b6/9/9/B4K3/3pp4/9 w - - 0 24]白宏宽版本黑胜？[/FEN]||||||【zqhuang注】本局在朱鶴洲.蒋权.裘望禹整理的《竹香斋象戏谱》里被诠释正为黑胜。但我认为红方有顽强的走法可以守和。||||[FEN\u003D9/4k4/9/4c4/2b6/2B6/9/3K5/4pp3/9 w - - 0 46]朱蒋裘版本黑胜？[/FEN]|||| 【大征西】我认为即使不按诠正着法走,最终也是黑胜!![/DhtmlXQ_comment0]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22]和。竹谱一本。续弈黑可胜。||||原谱至此即判和局,其实此时形势黑优可胜,故原谱判和有误,走下去黑方可胜.但黑要获胜,亦非简易,必须经过一番艰苦曲折的搏斗,才能获得!!||　本局黑胜可分三阶段,先看第一阶段着法:||||弈聪注：以上为网上的其他人论点。红本人拆解，黑胜走法有误。胜和待进一步拆解。黑要取胜，将必须居中露头。满足这个条件，即可判黑胜了。但现有的黑胜着法红都有办法应对成和。||||网上黑胜着法是老将上顶居中。||||红方中间许多走法应该可调换一下走子顺序，一种走法和的话，其它走法也基本上成和。||||||[FEN\u003D9/2P1P4/4k4/9/6b2/9/9/3KB4/3pp4/3c5 w - - 42 39]云库自动拆解黑胜着法1[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment22]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23]云库下步走象1进3。[/DhtmlXQ_comment23]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_25]竹香斋象戏谱（朱鶴洲.蒋权.裘望禹）给出的诠正着法里是这样走，结果黑胜||||注解合并：||! 红此时这样走,使黑胜之路变得很漫长!![/DhtmlXQ_comment87_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_32]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment87_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment87_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment87_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment1_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]？？[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]黑胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment2_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment3_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment3_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment4_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment4_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment5_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment6_59]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment6_59]
[DhtmlXQ_comment7_38]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment7_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment8_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment8_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment9_92]亦黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment9_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment10_47]以下用相走闲着,亦可成和![/DhtmlXQ_comment10_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment11_45]||至此,形成双方互相牵制,黑方难胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment11_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment12_63]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment12_63]
[DhtmlXQ_comment13_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment13_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment14_47]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment14_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment15_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment15_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment16_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_25]【zqhuang注】这样更顽强||||弈聪注：各种走法基本殊途同归。一种走法和的话，其它走法也应该和。因为黑要胜的话，1路卒要并拢。中间有很多步要走，这期间红调换一下走子顺序最后应该会走成相同的局面。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_25]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_27][FEN\u003D4k4/2P6/3P5/9/2b6/4P4/9/B2K5/p4p3/4c4 b - - 5 14]相同局面[/FEN]||||[FEN\u003D9/4k4/9/9/2b6/9/9/3K5/2p2p1c1/6B2 w - - 12 31]云库自动拆解黑胜着法[/FEN]||||云库执黑，本人执红，黑好象没变招余地。成和。红按以下主变走，看黑什么地方变招。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_28]亦可!||||弈聪注：应该是正招。应该成和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment17_48]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment17_48]
[DhtmlXQ_comment18_35]下见相同局面。[/DhtmlXQ_comment18_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment19_90]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment19_90]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20_35]和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment20_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment20_52]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment20_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment21_70]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment21_70]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_29]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_29]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_30]![/DhtmlXQ_comment22_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_34]黑可胜!？[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment22_80]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment22_80]
[DhtmlXQ_comment23_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment23_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment24_36]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment24_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment25_39]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment25_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment26_34]黑亦可胜!||||弈聪：和？[/DhtmlXQ_comment26_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27_31]这样和主变相同[/DhtmlXQ_comment27_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment28_62]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment28_62]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_28]取胜之关键一着!||||||弈聪注：感觉是软着。黑要取胜，老将必须居中，想办法消灭红兵。现移开中路，感觉有问题。走这步棋目的应该是老将上顶后再居中。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_28]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_30]!||||弈聪：经本人拆解，该路变化和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_32]这样黑可胜!||||弈聪注：可能还是和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_35]弈聪注：本人拆解的招法。黑能胜否。不要怕红兵被黑炮打。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_37]或动相走闲，黑将无法居中，和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_38]黑走其它，红帅居中。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment29_54]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment29_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment30_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment30_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment30_52]黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment30_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment32_44]黑胜定! ![/DhtmlXQ_comment32_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_34]!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_37]若如此循环下去,我认为此时应由红方变着!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_38]即使黑主动变着,如此走下去也是黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_39]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment33_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_44]至此,黑可胜!![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_44]
[DhtmlXQ_comment33_52]黑胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment33_52]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34_38]\u003F||||注解合并：||即使黑主动变着弃象,走下去也是黑胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment34_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment34_54]至此,又应胜反和矣![/DhtmlXQ_comment34_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment35_45]黑应胜反和![/DhtmlXQ_comment35_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment36_46]至此,黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment36_46]
[DhtmlXQ_comment37_36]黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment37_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment37_37]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment37_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment38_37]？？为何要送掉。动相走闲即可。[/DhtmlXQ_comment38_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment38_40]黑炮再消灭一个红兵后,即可胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment38_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment41_49]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment41_49]
[DhtmlXQ_comment42_56]黑胜定!![/DhtmlXQ_comment42_56]
[DhtmlXQ_comment43_56]黑胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment43_56]
[DhtmlXQ_comment46_60]黑炮打掉两兵后,胜定![/DhtmlXQ_comment46_60]
[DhtmlXQ_comment48_37]？？[/DhtmlXQ_comment48_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment48_38]黑可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment48_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment49_37]动相走闲，使黑将无法居中即和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment49_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment50_36]黑亦可胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment50_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment51_40]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment51_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment52_40]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment52_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment53_38]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment53_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment54_35]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment54_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment55_36]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment55_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment56_30]亦可胜!（？？？）[/DhtmlXQ_comment56_30]
[DhtmlXQ_comment56_31]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment56_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment57_43]红优[/DhtmlXQ_comment57_43]
[DhtmlXQ_comment58_38]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment58_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment59_36]劣[/DhtmlXQ_comment59_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment59_37]这样反成红胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment59_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_26][FEN\u003D4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B2K5/1p3p3/4c4 w - - 4 13]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment60_26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_31]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment60_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment60_51]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment60_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment61_47]以下炮要防双兵杀，无法捉死相。和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment61_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment63_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment63_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment64_33]![/DhtmlXQ_comment64_33]
[DhtmlXQ_comment64_54]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment64_54]
[DhtmlXQ_comment65_34]感觉打这个兵太早。应该想办法先打红六路兵。[/DhtmlXQ_comment65_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment65_37]感觉上仅稍好些!即使走成这样,黑还要多费周折![/DhtmlXQ_comment65_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment66_38]!黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment66_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment67_42]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment67_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment70_36]至此,红三兵被黑炮灭掉一个,黑棋完成了黑胜的第一阶段的目标![/DhtmlXQ_comment70_36]
[DhtmlXQ_comment71_38]至此,红三兵被黑炮灭掉一个,完成黑胜的第一阶段的目标![/DhtmlXQ_comment71_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment73_32]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment73_32]
[DhtmlXQ_comment74_34]和棋[/DhtmlXQ_comment74_34]
[DhtmlXQ_comment75_42]已和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment75_42]
[DhtmlXQ_comment76_45]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment76_45]
[DhtmlXQ_comment77_92]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment77_92]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_37]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_37]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_39]黑方长将。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_39]
[DhtmlXQ_comment78_60]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment78_60]
[DhtmlXQ_comment79_61]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment79_61]
[DhtmlXQ_comment80_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment80_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment81_26][FEN\u003D4k4/1P7/b2P5/9/9/4P4/9/B2K5/1p3p3/4c4 w - - 4 13]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment81_26]
[DhtmlXQ_comment81_35]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment81_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment82_35]？[/DhtmlXQ_comment82_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment82_70]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment82_70]
[DhtmlXQ_comment83_31]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment83_31]
[DhtmlXQ_comment83_51]和[/DhtmlXQ_comment83_51]
[DhtmlXQ_comment84_47]以下炮要防双兵杀，无法捉死相。和棋。[/DhtmlXQ_comment84_47]
[DhtmlXQ_comment86_41]和。[/DhtmlXQ_comment86_41]
[DhtmlXQ_comment27]![/DhtmlXQ_comment27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment96_38]反而成和矣![/DhtmlXQ_comment96_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment88_35]黑不易胜![/DhtmlXQ_comment88_35]
[DhtmlXQ_comment89_40]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment89_40]
[DhtmlXQ_comment90_27]兵八平七中有相同局面。[/DhtmlXQ_comment90_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment90_78]黑胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment90_78]
[DhtmlXQ_comment91_27][FEN\u003D4k4/2P6/3P5/9/2b6/4P4/9/B2K5/p4p3/4c4 b - - 5 14]相同局面[/FEN][/DhtmlXQ_comment91_27]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_12]劣[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_12]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_13]这样即可避免棋规问题获胜，黑无着可应[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_13]
[DhtmlXQ_comment92_17]红胜。[/DhtmlXQ_comment92_17]
[DhtmlXQ_comment93_18]红方需变着。不变作负。[/DhtmlXQ_comment93_18]
[DhtmlXQ_comment94_38]黑胜定。[/DhtmlXQ_comment94_38]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95_10]！[/DhtmlXQ_comment95_10]
[DhtmlXQ_comment95_14]黑胜[/DhtmlXQ_comment95_14]
[DhtmlXQ_type]摆谱中残局[/DhtmlXQ_type]
[DhtmlXQ_owner]弈聪[/DhtmlXQ_owner]
[DhtmlXQ_firstnum]0[/DhtmlXQ_firstnum]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_27_88]322208184443182838375848374728384757[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_27_88]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_25_90]383769494544081811215848213118283121283832314944374724424757445457474858475738485747545007295060290760700729707929077949473742640729405029475051476551526547524247294989290789882111483807255848254788581121585931415939[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_25_90]
[DhtmlXQ_move_0_30_96]081821311828383732724353584853527271[/DhtmlXQ_move_0_30_96][DhtmlXQ_comment30]這樣如何||紅好像和不了[/DhtmlXQ_comment30]
[DhtmlXQ_refer]http%3A//www.hgchess.com/%0D%0Ahttp%3A//www.hgchess.com/bbs/forum.php%3Fmod%3Dviewthread%26tid%3D53084%26extra%3Dpage%253D1[/DhtmlXQ_refer]
[DhtmlXQ_generator]www.dpxq.com[/DhtmlXQ_generator]
[/DhtmlXQ]

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 00:44
本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2018-9-29 12:25 编辑

象1进3的着法是云库自动拆解的。发现是黑胜后，直接查找红方那步棋出现问题。后面有步应对兵八平七直接转到相同局面中去了，之后的相同局面中让云库执黑我执红又拆解了一下，发现黑与我原先的走法一致。该路变化其实未仔细拆解，
我认为走子顺序可能关系不是很大。发现云库走象1进3黑胜后（之前这路变化未去注意），按我走子顺序关系不大的想法会走成我认为的已经拆解过的和棋局面。

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-29 03:05
樓上說的應是13回合進帥14回合兵八平七

不是車八平七

這樣大家就比較清楚一點

作者: 承云医疾 时间: 2018-9-29 09:28
我花了大约2个小时查看了竹香谱，结果发现，上海文化出版社诠注本（朱鹤洲）诠注基本走法相同

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-29 12:04
樓上說的可是蔣權裘望禹朱鶴洲三人合詮的那一本?那本不是認為黑勝嗎?

難道朱鶴洲大師又另外自己獨自詮一本?詮為和局了嗎?

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-29 12:09
樓上說的可是蔣權裘望禹朱鶴洲三人合詮的那一本?那本不是認為黑勝嗎?

難道朱鶴洲大師又另外自己獨自詮一本?詮為和局了嗎?

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 12:27
朱鹤洲2000年以后单独出版了一本诠注本。其中的变化也已全部加入本局中。网上的走法和其它诠注本的走法我能找到的基本上都已录入进去了。

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 12:28
对其中认为是黑胜的着法我重点进行了拆解，发现有问题。

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 12:53
一楼重新编辑了一下，加入了朱鹤洲版本2000年和棋着法的链接。

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-29 17:47
2007年陸曙光先生詮注本直接用修改局

2014年白宏寬老師詮注本也認為原局黑勝

二者都未參考朱大師2000年的版本吧

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 18:08
很多胜和结论的改变主要来源应该来自论坛。虽然有时偶尔错误，相对来说论坛中多人的参与和电脑软件的应用也诠正了很多古谱中的错误。

今年以来我对四大排局古谱进行录入拆解。也发现了很多结论性错误。如百局中的三气周瑜，现排局界好象认为黑胜已经是定论了。很多诠注本直接以修改局的形式出现，只是提及原谱是黑胜等。我拆解的结果也是黑胜有问题，应该可和。

作者: chouzhouyu 时间: 2018-9-29 18:13
本帖最后由 chouzhouyu 于 2018-9-29 18:49 编辑

http://www.hychess.com/forum.php ... 5200&extra=page%3D2

鸿弈网中大征西的贴子。

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-29 22:43
蔣權朱鶴洲裘望禹合詮的百局譜三氣周瑜局也是和局
正確走法寫在註解之中

作者: 聨吟客 时间: 2018-9-30 00:11
已另發三氣周瑜討論帖子

歡迎大家共襄盛舉

作者: dave7788 时间: 2018-10-18 20:34
本帖最后由 dave7788 于 2018-10-19 08:32 编辑

“寒松卧壑”的同形局有《心武残编》第17局“琴瑟间钟”、《心武残编》第18局“五色纷披”、《百局象棋谱》第49局“月光赚将”、《渊深海阔》第189局“裸衣鏖战”。《竹香斋》1804年版本中，棋图与“琴瑟间钟”完全相同。看来惟有《竹香斋》1817年版本中修改的棋图（即1楼）可以成为正和。

欢迎光临华工象棋论坛 (http://hgchess.com/bbs/)